XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

One thing's evident... both WAR and PLD can pull a HECK of a lot of hate.
And that's just on the Forums.

:rolleyes: :p

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Originally Posted by RougeBuffle

So... WARs can be at times, "clubbed by a special mechanic" but are otherwise fine?
What 'task' are they failing to do? Who assigned that 'task'? You?

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I don't think I was clear. The task is main tanking. That is what we're talking about a WAR doing. WAR is not a viable DPS; that much is clear, just as DRG is not a viable tank. We are discussing whether WAR can tank the opponents necessary to clear content. This is not a matter of any particular mechanic; once a damage threshold is reached, WAR will struggle.

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Originally Posted by RougeBuffle

Isn't all of this beyond your ability to judge? What Coil experience do you have?

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Doesn't matter. I only state what is observed, and that which is mathematically demonstrable.

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Originally Posted by RougeBuffle

Of course Two PLDs can clear everything, they are the bread and butter... one sided pure defensive tanks.

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That also does not matter. You are saying that because they are proactive tanks, they are innately able. If all of their abilities were nerfed to 1% mitigation, they would still be "pure defensive" tanks, but they would also no longer be viable. Put simply, WAR is weak and PLD is strong because they are poorly-balanced, not because of some innate function of design.

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Originally Posted by RougeBuffle

Doesn't change anything to the fact that a PLD/WAR duo can also clear everything... WARs are viable, end of the story.

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Non sequitur. You have only shown that WAR can play second fiddle, not that WAR is viable as a main tank. If WAR can be carried with PLD as main-tank, then WAR is viable as off-tank/add-tank only, not as main tank. That would suggest that PLD is main-tank and off-tank while WAR is off-tank only. You need to demonstrate that WAR can main-tank any endgame content.

You can keep saying that two WAR can complete turns 1 and 2, but you have not given any evidence. I cannot prove a negative. With the excess of WAR unwanted for endgame content, I would expect that someone would have done it and recorded it, but I was not able to find an example. Can someone demonstrate this occurring?

Not sure why people are now arguing about warrior viability. Anyone can be carried through content given enough effort by the other party members.

The biggest thing isn't that playing a WAR isn't just more effort on the part of the WAR, like many people seem to insist.

The fact of the matter is that playing a WAR doesn't show off your skill as a WAR. It shows off the skill of the rest of your party. The weaknesses of the WAR don't even fall that heavily on the WAR when it comes to endgame. It falls on everyone else.

The WARs who are complaining aren't complaining because they want it to be easier for them. They are complaining because they don't like being a handicap for the rest of their party.

P.S. WAR is clearly not viable for all content. It's only viable as an "off tank" with more effort than would be required for a PLD "off tank." So claiming that WAR is viable for all the content in the game is no more accurate than saying a healer in ilvl 40 equipment is viable for Titan as long as everyone else has relics and ilvl 70 gear.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Not sure why people are now arguing about warrior viability. Anyone can be carried through content given enough effort by the other party members.

The biggest thing isn't that playing a WAR isn't just more effort on the part of the WAR, like many people seem to insist.
The fact of the matter is that playing a WAR doesn't show off your skill as a WAR. It shows off the skill of the rest of your party. The weaknesses of the WAR don't even fall that heavily on the WAR when it comes to endgame. It falls on everyone else.

The WARs who are complaining aren't complaining because they want it to be easier for them. They are complaining because they don't like being a handicap for the rest of their party.

P.S. WAR is clearly not viable for all content. It's only viable as an "off tank" with more effort than would be required for a PLD "off tank." So claiming that WAR is viable for all the content in the game is no more accurate than saying a healer in ilvl 40 equipment is viable for Titan as long as everyone else has relics and ilvl 70 gear.

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This is not true. AND EVEN IF IT WAS! It still demonstrates skill the "carry" a gimp job through content. That last statement is simply uninformed... Several; severallllllllll WAR mt; double WAR have completed everything to titan to turns 2! Just b/c most ppl can't do it ; doesn't mean no one can do it or HAS already done it.


Regardless of all this it doesn't change the FACT OF THE MATTER.

some people want the WARRIOR class adjusted. Made an EASIER class ( you can't get around that easier word no matter how HARD you try).

Others prefer the class AS IT.


You guys make it appear like this is some Worldview we discussing.....


ONE SIDE: "CHANGE IT MAKE IT EASIER PLEASE"
ANOTHER SIDE: "LEAVE IT ALONE WE LIKE IT AS IT"

How can you say " your side is 'wrong' ? ". HOW can you be wrong for preferring the game as is??? WRONG??!

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Originally Posted by Leiron

You're just as bad if not worse Javid so do everyone a favor and take a brick to your hands.
kthx

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you want to support your claim?? b/c I can link a butt load of his threads and adds and is vitriol. And now for calling him out on this nonsense I'm "just as bad if not WORSE"?? Where have I belittled people base on their ideas? demoralized their intelligence and berated their character on the account that they disagree with me?? PLease... show me so I may introspective gauge my forum behavior.


Seriously.... some people.... please don't ignore my request link my WORST so we can see how much of an ASS I really am.

Some of the responses in this thread...

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Originally Posted by Terabyt3

^this..... They put it better :D

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Berserk with a smart healer is marginally better than FoF. Esuna HEALER...ESUNA....WArriors need it.

Fight or Flight: effective 10% dmg bonus
Berserk: effective (with smart healer) 11%** dmg bonus ( Berserk does change attack power; but how attack power relates to dmg is yet unknown; however assuming linearity : Att(n)= Dmg(n); 1.5*Att(n)= 1.5*Dmg(n) )


Nevertheless; Fight or Flight is less hassle and the "EASIER" skill (I myself prefer it to berserk overall; BUT NOT SITUATIONAL; which is the main reason bersker is used- to max IB)

50% Attack Power is absolutely not 50% damage, FYI. It's weaker than you're estimating.

So, Javid, your defence is essentially "I want to be carried, because my class is bad and I want the healers to work for it."

Why should the rest of the community cater to that?

@Javid

Putting more stress on a role that's already dealing with less margin for error due to the mechanics of Warrior being reactive mitigation is not a solution or a good argument - WAR is viable when it has a talented group that can compensate and make it work.

I think it's disingenuous* to expect your party to compensate for a weakness in the mechanics of your class - a weakness that is in no way directly mirrored in your corresponding tank role; Paladin.

I think it's unfair to new players that selected Warrior based on cool and dazzling armor at the character creation; it takes until their first dungeon (lv15) for them to figure out they fill a tank role. Then it takes another 35 levels to find out that their tank is often relegated to being OT or a more difficult, and demanding MT that requires special melded gear and reaching specific stat caps to be mathematically less effective compared to a Paladin in the same situations.

That's core fundamental imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So, Javid, your defence is essentially "I want to be carried, because my class is bad and I want the healers to work for it."

Why should the rest of the community cater to that?

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My "defense" was I disagree that Warrior; has to be "carried" through content. I simply made a correction to his saying. IFF we "warriors" were being carried THROUGH end-game (titan+ beyond content as main tank). This would still demonstrate that the WArrior Party is showing more effort, focus, resolve, than that of a similar PLD group.


The community as a WHOLE doesn't want any ONE thing....or we'd not be having this thread page 4 (of the infinite WAR vs PLD comparison)......so community is divided on what they want.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

@Javid


I think it's ingenuous to expect your party to compensate for a weakness in the mechanics of your class - a weakness that is in no way directly mirrored in your corresponding tank role; Paladin.

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"ingenuous" ??? com' on!!! What is this? We're not at boot camp taking turns at the water fountain on a 5 minute break and someone chooses to take 2 minutes to rehydrate.

The correct term is challenge. Some players WANT the challenge. And respectively other dont want to bother with the drag. That is player's individual prerogative. Free to stick it out test their mettle or re que. Well new WArriors that hit this End game WALL of a challenge will discover if they have what it takes to go forward or re- roll as a PLD .

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

50% Attack Power is absolutely not 50% damage, FYI. It's weaker than you're estimating.

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This is to be determine. We don't have any solid information on how attack Power scales to actual dmg. Again I said IFF it's a linear correlation; IF attack power, like str is to parry, has tiers then.... that sucks ass.... but again lets get some numbers and find out how MUCH weaker it maybe than 50% dmg

I don't have anything higher than Titan to boast about personally. I've tank Titan at 6.2k HP & at 7.1k;

LET ME TELL YOU.....THAT 6.2K; you can make NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mistakes; none; Healers included

After Titan phase 5 does his bomb formation he's coming for you and if you weren't smart enough to start buidling your hp pass 5500 for the 800 punch he'll do, followed by rock buster(left hand bitch slap) for 1k+ then the 4.5k mountain in your face.... you dead.... that simple.

my healers were experience both times so it was fun and exciting for everyone in party who was thrill that defeated Titan with a WAR main.

FYI: Mountain in your face is on a minute rotation; you can IBx3 by then to help mitigate the dmg.


yes yes you're still taking dmg from tumult and 2 other 800 dps ; but this is why it's key you absorb the proper HP at the right time. For example I never use Conval with Wrath 15%; that is excessive; and should only be done if you are about to get that MOUNTAIN SLAP and you need that 5.5k HP NOOOOOWWWWWW!!

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Originally Posted by javid

This is to be determine. We don't have any solid information on how attack Power scales to actual dmg. Again I said IFF it's a linear correlation; IF attack power, like str is to parry, has tiers then.... that sucks ass.... but again lets get some numbers and find out how MUCH weaker it maybe than 50% dmg

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It takes like 4 seconds to test. Hit mob, pop Berserk, hit mob. It will be well below a 50% increase.

Berserk is nowhere near powerful enough to warrant the pacify at the end of it's effect. It's a pretty great example of the terrible design that plagues this game. Fight or Flight gives more damage AND has no downside.

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Berserk with a smart healer is marginally better than FoF. Esuna HEALER...ESUNA....WArriors need it.

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Ok let's talk about esuna on the pacify

1) Healer has to sit there with gcd clear, ready to cleanse the pacify.
2) Healer uses esuna, the animation plays, pacify is finally registered as being cured
3) In exchange for this, you get a whole ONE EXTRA ABILITY OFF because of the delay on esuna.

How is a tank getting to use one extra weapon skill worth even remotely worth all of that bother?

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Originally Posted by javid

Berserk with a smart healer is marginally better than FoF. Esuna HEALER...ESUNA....WArriors need it.

Nevertheless; Fight or Flight is less hassle and the "EASIER" skill (I myself prefer it to berserk overall; BUT NOT SITUATIONAL; which is the main reason bersker is used- to max IB)

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2 things. First off, if you're doing real content your healers aren't going to have "free" GCD's to cast esuna to remove a debuff you put on yoruself that's really of little consequence. And again, this is an example of WAR skills making it more difficult for the rest of your party, not for the warrior themselves. You're not relying on YOUR skill to make good use of Berserk. You are relying on other people.

Point two, you would be incredibly stupid to prefer Berserk to Fight or Flight.

Fight or Flight is slightly less damage increase lategame (30% for FoF, 35-40% with berserk), but it has the same cooldown, no downside, and 10 second longer duration. Fight or Flight works out to 10% increased DPS/Enmity if used on cooldown. Berserk works out to about 3-4% if used on cooldown.

Unchained is another example of a skill that's not only less potent, but also carries a bunch of situational downsides. Berserk and Unchained combined don't match the contribution to damage that fight or flight gives you.

So again, it's not about "using the skills better". It's just about the skills being objectively significantly worse, and having usage complications on top of being worse.

In short, you really don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you just haven't thought about it that much. You might think the mechanics are better, but the argument you're making is akin to someone saying they would prefer to do 8 dps instead of 10 dps. It's nonsensical in terms of game mechanics.

Flight or flight is awesome. So many uses for it. Berserk... not so much.

Only level 28 mrd but the only use I can find for berserk is solo or when in group when I know everything will be dead by the time it is up. The restrictions on it hurt way to much.

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Originally Posted by Faction

Berserk is nowhere near powerful enough to warrant the pacify at the end of it's effect. It's a pretty great example of the terrible design that plagues this game. Fight or Flight gives more damage AND has no downside.



Ok let's talk about esuna on the pacify

1) Healer has to sit there with gcd clear, ready to cleanse the pacify.
2) Healer uses esuna, the animation plays, pacify is finally registered as being cured
3) In exchange for this, you get a whole ONE EXTRA ABILITY OFF because of the delay on esuna.

How is a tank getting to use one extra weapon skill worth even remotely worth all of that bother?

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dude.... esuna is 1 sec cast. the effect is instant. and I have a macro I shoot before my berserk is down tellingthem "Esuna / Leeches can I have it".
its 5 sec/ that's 2 ws; and 2 weaponskill matters in a hate rotation. IE Titan fight you just used up berserk as he flew into the sky and now pacification just happens to be up when he lands....provoke/flash is NOT gonna re establish hate.... healers can die...

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

2 things. First off, if you're doing real content your healers aren't going to have "free" GCD's to cast esuna to remove a debuff you put on yoruself that's really of little consequence. And again, this is an example of WAR skills making it more difficult for the rest of your party, not for the warrior themselves. You're not relying on YOUR skill to make good use of Berserk. You are relying on other people.
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....why does everyone this forum love their insults..... ITS A GAME PPL. Why do ppl have to be stupid for this or that?

Anyways....by your own admission....If you want to max Inner Beast absorb...and you had a choice between both abilities......which would u choice......Now that you agreed with my OP.....I guess we are both "real stupid" for both picking Berserk to excuse an Inner beast.

No where in my OP did i say anything about mechanics.....

And sticking to the POINT.... the IDEA BEING DISCUSS which skill is the superior skill. AND i SAID FIGHT OR FLIGHT IS BETTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRR.RRRRRRRRR

but if you want to MAX your Inner Beast absorb berserk will out shine FoF.

That is all i said....

where is all that other stuff coming from??

"you don't know what you're talking about".....
really....guy....really.... this skills are so complex that I need TIME to sit and mediate on each skills potential and usage....

And healers, affective healers do have time to case esuna/ leech on request and if you develop a noticable pattern they can que command....which my parties have done b/c I give them a very steady pattern to its usage when possible.

Last I check Titan Fights matters....

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Originally Posted by javid

dude.... esuna is 1 sec cast. the effect is instant. and I have a macro I shoot before my berserk is down tellingthem "Esuna / Leeches can I have it".
its 5 sec/ that's 2 ws; and 2 weaponskill matters in a hate rotation. IE Titan fight you just used up berserk as he flew into the sky and now pacification just happens to be up when he lands....provoke/flash is NOT gonna re establish hate.... healers can die...

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The effect of esuna isn't instant, you just said so yourself. It's pretty much the most flagrant waste of effort in all of the game, I mean, you just used berserk. How could you possibly be riding enmity that close after 20 seconds of berserk? In addition you're wasting your healers global cooldowns and possibly more time if he's actually holding his gcd to get the esuna off asap, if he's actually getting it immediately like you try to imply.

Aside from maybe making the warrior feel special because he gets to use an extra weapon skill, this is the most inconsequential of all the inconsequential warrior things, right up there with people who say that cross class mantra will make a difference ever.

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IE Titan fight you just used up berserk as he flew into the sky and now pacification just happens to be up when he lands....provoke/flash is NOT gonna re establish hate

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There's no threat wipe on titan, and if there was, why would you blow berserk and pacify yourself at such a bad time anyway?

Difficult cumbersome, annoying, whatever you wanna call all these warrior mechanics....there IS a best maxing DPS or DEF way to rotate them.

Unchained; useful during Titan Heart Phase as main tank or off tank. How? The key is to go into the start of heart phase with Wrath 5. Titan lands; he's mad, look him in the eye; tell him you're sorry; BUT YOU GOT MORE ASS WHOPPIN COMIN
(assuming you're not in a rock....)
Brutal Swing
Heavy Swing
Unchained
Berserk/ Internal release (DON'T DO BOTH AT ONCE B/C TITAN HEART PHASE IS 65 DPS SEC LONG & Better to use Berserk last for the 5 second you'd lose without esuna)
Infuriate
Inner Beast
complete a rotation (maim, storm or skull sunder, butcher)
vengence
Heavy Swing
complete a rotation (maim/skull)
berserk
Inner Beast
(if you're off tank pop off defiance)
Brutal Swing
Mercy Stroke
etc. if needed


If you chose Berserk first time around right before Pacification hit Brutal Swing there instead as the skill won't stop.

Back when i had my str at 411 Full Party Titan; off tank I hit two 1014ish with Butcher's Block & Storm's Eye using that rotation.


The Point of unchained is to give a Warrior tank a few seconds to go DPS without giving up the ability to build wrath (critcal and hp buff andheals).

@Faction





no threat wipe...


any ways I just said....BEFORE MY BERSERK IS DOOOOWWWWN....re read please.

Second on Titan he Jumps in and out base on his HP levels; so unless you're really watching his HP levels to guage if you should use abilities like Berserk to max your Inner Beast absorbs; it is very possible that you can que a skill and not get the remaing benefits of that skill before he Jumps.

It happens



Had a party with lots of relics (magesx2, dragoon, monk; others had primals). We zerk Titan....no limit break for the heart; just straight zerk!! Those Jump rotations from start to Heart phase had to be less than 5 minute; Because on his Second phase I que unchained and by his heart phase unchained wasn't ready..... (3 min recast).

Phase 1 doesn't last 1 min... unless you're party is just auto attacking
Phase 2 maybe 45-50 sec longest with poor dps
Phase 3 is longer since he really tries to fit in 3 bomb formations (Doesn't work though if you Dps fast)
Heart Time....

Personally, I always Esuna the Pacification on berserk because it annoys the hell out of me whenever I play WAR myself.

It's a 0.99 second cast for little MP, so I like doing it.

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Originally Posted by Tanaya

Personally, I always Esuna the Pacification on berserk because it annoys the hell out of me whenever I play WAR myself.

It's a 0.99 second cast for little MP, so I like doing it.

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Tanaya for President!!!

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Originally Posted by Faction

Berserk is nowhere near powerful enough to warrant the pacify at the end of it's effect. It's a pretty great example of the terrible design that plagues this game. Fight or Flight gives more damage AND has no downside.



Ok let's talk about esuna on the pacify

1) Healer has to sit there with gcd clear, ready to cleanse the pacify.
2) Healer uses esuna, the animation plays, pacify is finally registered as being cured
3) In exchange for this, you get a whole ONE EXTRA ABILITY OFF because of the delay on esuna.

How is a tank getting to use one extra weapon skill worth even remotely worth all of that bother?

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Because everything to you is negative and wrong, and there is nothing positive. Period.

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

Because everything to you is negative and wrong, and there is nothing positive. Period.

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Isn't it funny how one side presents objective facts and all the other has is crap like this?

Ok, this is my result of last night.

I(WHM) went to CoB turn 1 with 2 pally tank. My healing partner was another WHM.
When pally tanking bosses(after split), we had no problem to heal tanks and group over heal until finish(mana was 3k+ without mana song).

However, our DPS was not enough and 1 pally had to go. We've got warrior tank and equip was not much different with bailed pally.
I was heal warrior after boss split. Result was.....horrible.
was very very hard to handle warrior hp without support heal from another WHM. I need to spam cure2 and cant heal group.
Needed heal shower on warrior to make survive him. Other WHM heal his tank and my warrior. We had no time to heal DPS and DPS died 1 by 1 bcz couldnt get heal from us. Out of my mana with mana song and other healer too.

We made conversation after gave up turn 1...If tank was pally, we could get that snake. Problem was we couldnt do group over heal because had to heal shower warrior. Everyone agreed it.

(damn, stupid 1000 words limit)

Personally, I dont like warrior tank because heal is harder than pally and its goes more harder and harder when mobs are getting stronger. Even their HP is more than pally, it doesnt matter. Much HP? so what? getting more dmg and useless defensive CDs. DPS is better than pally? so what? anyway, tank's DPS is not much help to group overall DPS.

Point of healer's view, warrior defensive CDs are 'NO' help to healers. That is just SELF SATISFY CDs. Nothing help to party.
To me, warrior is just mana sponge. I really dont want group with warriors.

Because PLD's Shield Oath and Defensive Skills scale against damage regardless of gear, I think that's why Paladin seems so OP compared to Warrior.
What will Paladin see from the best gear? More HP, a bit more Defens, slightly better block and parry, maybe a little more enmity generation from the STR already on gear? Most importantly it will not see any extra benefit from its existing defensive buffs.
So let’s take a look at Warrior using AF2, Relic 2 and end game jewelry, because Warrior’s main defense is its offense, which it can only get from gear equal to the content being challenged (player skill aside)
I did a spec sheet on what my characters stats would be in full endgame gear (Hero, Alagan etc)

Bravura + 1

STR 451
VIT 395
ACC 429
CRIT 379
Parry 466
DET 263
Skill Speed 393

Using damage testing and cross referencing it to these stats here’s what I came up with.
Warrior HP ~ 6300
Average Inner Beast - 1632 HP Recovered @ 544 Damage (Maim, Storm’s Eye)

~ 106 SHPS using only Inner Beast and double Inner Beast @ 60 second intervals
~ 140 SHPS including other CD’s (Berserk, Inner Release, Second Wind, Thrill)
~ Bloodbath would account for ~ 13 SHPS (including AA damage)
~ Infuriate Buff would account for ~ 56 HPS (Average 2k heal @ 7% Average Wrath)

So ~ 209 Damage Mitigation per second fully geared.

Long story short. Still not that effective compared to Paladin.

Very decent post and analysis, hope that will put some senses into some people that just says 'l2p'. Play both like me, you tell the difference very EASILY.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Stuff

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Some comments:

1) 6300 HP in full ilvl 90 gear is woefully low. Titan would be a stretch at that HP with 2 healers, and I'm pretty sure CAD and Turn 4 would be out of the question.
2) 1950 average inner beast w/ 4 inner beasts per minute (infuriate) works out to 130 Self Heals per Second (SHPS?), not 180. You can't get more than 4 inner beasts per minute, and even that is pushing it in reality.
3) adding Berserk, Internal Release, and Second Wind is unlikely to take you up 54 self heals per second. It seems like you're counting maybe 2 (or 3? But it's impossible) inner beasts per Berserk + Internal Release, and having both of those cooldowns up for second wind, and calculating the value of each skill despite the fact that their cooldowns don't line up perfectly, with each other or with Infuriate. I calculated this at ~35 self heals per second.
4) you left off Thrill of Battle for ~10 self heals per second @6300 hp.
5) you're counting infuriate twice. If you infuriate for double inner beasts, you don't benefit from the effective bonus healing of having 5 wrath stacks after an inner beast.

Even if results aren't entirley accurate it might finally get into some peoples head that WAR's static mitigation doesn not run well in BC + Titan compared to PLD scaling mitigation.

I love my WAR. First job to 50. Most fun to play. Love the aesthetics and the idea of reactive tanking.

But anyone with an "onze" of common sense can see that once incoming dps becomes high enough % mitigation will overtake static any day.

It's not a question of "Can it be done" but a question of what is most effective. For BC currently it's PLD. Hands down.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Average Inner Beast - 1950 HP Recovered @ 650 Damage (Maim, Storm’s Eye)

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Is this for real ? Honest question here, I am more on the daklight side of the gearing process, and i have a hard time seeing inner beast doing an average of 650 damage without berserk or internal release up. So is this legit ?

This thread is disappointing, as now I pretty much should roll Pld, despite liking the look of war more... :(

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Originally Posted by Casper

Is this for real ? Honest question here, I am more on the daklight side of the gearing process, and i have a hard time seeing inner beast doing an average of 650 damage without berserk or internal release up. So is this legit ?

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Look at his STR, then yours. The compare your HP and his. He's STR stacked with really low HP pool. Awesome for speed runs. Sucks for being able to take a hit.

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Originally Posted by coffeepotz

This thread is disappointing, as now I pretty much should roll Pld, despite liking the look of war more... :(

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Roll both. WAR is viable for everything. Just not as efficient. PLD only really starts to outshine WAR in Titan HM and BC. Before that a DL WAR wins in AK and CM. (when incoming dps is low enough. AK you can almost go without healing!)

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

STR 451

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Lol, nice. But calculations are pretty far off from what I'm seeing, and I'm not sure how you're getting them.

Valk's damage formula, which has been pretty good at estimating IB damage (e.g. Kunkka v. Faction), predicts 1.3756 crit-adjusted damage per potency. This is 1650.72 healed from IB after Maim and Storm's Eye. At 4 uses per minute (1 per 20s plus Infuriate), that's about 110 health per second excluding other cooldowns. If you get 2 of them off in Berserk per 90s, you'd be at less than 125 per second average (assuming 40% net damage boost from Berserk). Second Wind heals half as much as Inner Beast at 120-second intervals; it should be about 6.875 HP per second in over time. Thus, you're invariably less than 132 HP/s. That is the absolute limit, and thoroughly impractical. It also ignores overheal. Furthermore, if you look at the simplest no-off-GCD rotation, the average number of Wrath stacks is 2.33, or a 7% healing boost. If you compare to off-GCD rotations, you will vary between 6.0% (drop ability immediately before IB, which is exactly what you'll be doing with Berserk) and 7.7% (drop ability immediately after IB, thoroughly impractical). No matter how you slice it, Wrath's average bonus should be around 7% for a maximum-IB-spam setup. Now, that mitigation amount is tied to enemy damage input; you are healed as much as you are damaged. You adjust for amount recovered by self-healing, then divide by healing bonus according to this effective formula:

Wrath healing load relieved = [1 - 1/(1 + Wrathbonus)] * [damage taken rate - (self-healing rate * overheal ratio)]

Thus, at 1000 incoming DPS and 7% average Wrath bonus, you recover an effective 56.8 HP per second additional. This comes out to a total of around 188 mitigation per second at absolute max. Comparatively, if PLD is blocking 5% more incoming damage compared to WAR (which cannot block at all), then you expect a best-case comparison to be 240 passively mitigated by PLD compared to 188 actively mitigated by WAR. Just sitting on Wrath stacks gives you 130/s, which speaks about as ill of WAR's self-healing as could be imagined. If you want to include Rampart, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground as a rate, then PLD would be effectively just under 315 per second at 1000 incoming DPS. PLD will get all of that, of course, but if you want to look at what a WAR will realistically get, you can pretty much shave 20% off the top due to overheals and imperfect use. In any realistic endgame scenario, PLD will mitigate twice as much as WAR or more, plus superior burst reserve.

//EDIT: I realized that I forgot Inner Release and Thrill of Battle. IR will increase average self-healing rate by less than 1 per second (0.835). ToB at 6300 HP will give you 1260 back, or 10.5 per second when time-weighted. Still less than 200 in the very best case.

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Originally Posted by Terabyt3

Even if results aren't entirley accurate it might finally get into some peoples head that WAR's static mitigation doesn not run well in BC + Titan compared to PLD scaling mitigation.

I love my WAR. First job to 50. Most fun to play. Love the aesthetics and the idea of reactive tanking.

But anyone with an "onze" of common sense can see that once incoming dps becomes high enough % mitigation will overtake static any day.

It's not a question of "Can it be done" but a question of what is most effective. For BC currently it's PLD. Hands down.

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So sad, but so true. I'm levelling my pld and switching to him as my main when he hits 50. I even have a garuda sword ready.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Some comments:

1) 6300 HP in full ilvl 90 gear is woefully low. Titan would be a stretch at that HP with 2 healers, and I'm pretty sure CAD and Turn 4 would be out of the question.
2) 1950 average inner beast w/ 4 inner beasts per minute (infuriate) works out to 130 Self Heals per Second (SHPS?), not 180. You can't get more than 4 inner beasts per minute, and even that is pushing it in reality.
3) adding Berserk, Internal Release, and Second Wind is unlikely to take you up 54 self heals per second. It seems like you're counting maybe 2 (or 3? But it's impossible) inner beasts per Berserk + Internal Release, and having both of those cooldowns up for second wind, and calculating the value of each skill despite the fact that their cooldowns don't line up perfectly, with each other or with Infuriate. I calculated this at ~35 self heals per second.
4) you left off Thrill of Battle for ~10 self heals per second @6300 hp.
5) you're counting infuriate twice. If you infuriate for double inner beasts, you don't benefit from the effective bonus healing of having 5 wrath stacks after an inner beast.

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I wanted to use best case scenario so:

2) I used 4.5 IB per minute + factoring in ~20% Crit Chance

For the rest I used a 6 Minute (360s) scale in order to fit all the CD's within a timeframe and then scaled it back to per second.

The reason I went with a "best case scenario" is to compare it directly to PLD with it's automatic 20% damage reduction with Shield Oath which is always active.

I am not sure what kind of DPS a tank will be facing in BC in order to even compete with Paladin, but wanted to show what Warrior was capable of in "the best" endgame DPS to HP absorb gear as that seemed like the best comparison.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Lol, nice. But calculations are pretty far off from what I'm seeing, and I'm not sure how you're getting them.

Valk's damage formula, which has been pretty good at estimating IB damage (e.g. Kunkka v. Faction), predicts 1.3756 crit-adjusted damage per potency. This is 1650.72 healed from IB after Maim and Storm's Eye. At 4 uses per minute (1 per 20s plus Infuriate), that's about 110 health per second excluding other cooldowns. If you get 2 of them off in Berserk per 90s, you'd be at less than 125 per second average (assuming 40% net damage boost from Berserk). Second Wind heals half as much as Inner Beast at 120-second intervals; it should be about 6.875 HP per second in over time. Thus, you're invariably less than 132 HP/s. That is the absolute limit, and thoroughly impractical. It also ignores overheal. Furthermore, if you look at the simplest no-off-GCD rotation, the average number of Wrath stacks is 2.33, or a 7% healing boost. If you compare to off-GCD rotations, you will vary between 6.0% (drop ability immediately before IB, which is exactly what you'll be doing with Berserk) and 7.7% (drop ability immediately after IB, thoroughly impractical). No matter how you slice it, Wrath's average bonus should be around 7% for a maximum-IB-spam setup. Now, that mitigation amount is tied to enemy damage input; you are healed as much as you are damaged. You adjust for amount recovered by self-healing, then divide by healing bonus according to this effective formula:

Wrath healing load relieved = [1 - 1/(1 + Wrathbonus)] * [damage taken rate - (self-healing rate * overheal ratio)]

Thus, at 1000 incoming DPS and 7% average Wrath bonus, you recover an effective 56.8 HP per second additional. This comes out to a total of around 188 mitigation per second at absolute max. Comparatively, if PLD is blocking 5% more incoming damage compared to WAR (which cannot block at all), then you expect a best-case comparison to be 240 passively mitigated by PLD compared to 188 actively mitigated by WAR. Just sitting on Wrath stacks gives you 130/s, which speaks about as ill of WAR's self-healing as could be imagined. If you want to include Rampart, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground as a rate, then PLD would be effectively just under 315 per second at 1000 incoming DPS. PLD will get all of that, of course, but if you want to look at what a WAR will realistically get, you can pretty much shave 20% off the top due to overheals and imperfect use. In any realistic endgame scenario, PLD will mitigate twice as much as WAR or more, plus superior burst reserve.

//EDIT: I realized that I forgot Inner Release and Thrill of Battle. IR will increase average self-healing rate by less than 1 per second (0.835). ToB at 6300 HP will give you 1260 back, or 10.5 per second when time-weighted. Still less than 200 in the very best case.

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That's a great tool. The reason my numbers are different is because I was getting different results as to the effectiveness of Weapon Physical Damage.
I did a comparison test using the Lominsan Bhuj (30 Physical Damage) and the LT Labyrs (38 Physical Damage) as it was a difference of 8 Physical Damage (LT Labyr vs Bravura + 1)

After testing to see if the Bhuj was hitting any STR stat caps (which it wasn't at my current STR rating) I compared it to the Labyrs at almost identical stats, which was a difference of ~ 70 Damage, compared to that tool's difference of 36 Damage.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

2) I used 4.5 IB per minute + factoring in ~20% Crit Chance

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Neither of those are possible. You cannot exceed 1 IB per 17.5s from 2*combo+off-GCD, and you lose 5 seconds per 90s due to Berserk and 2.5s per minute from the Infuriate IB. You have less than 1 GCD leeway per minute in achieving 4 IB per minute, and 4.5 is totally impossible. Absolute perfect use would theoretically allow 4 uses per minute, and as Hachiko rightfully pointed out, that is extremely shaky. The ratio you added for Berserk and IB is also huge. Split off the meager 7 HP per second from Second Wind and you have assumed waaaay too much power behind the two damage buffs. Sanity check -- do you really think Berserk and IR add 26% to your overall DPS?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

That's a great tool. The reason my numbers are different is because I was getting different results as to the effectiveness of Weapon Physical Damage. I compared it to the Labyrs at almost identical stats, which was a difference of ~ 70 Damage, compared to that tool's difference of 36 Damage.

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You're going to have to post your whole data on this. Regardless, the tool has been very accurate in predicting Inner Beast damage with the Bravura+1. Kunkka had 423 strength with a Bravura+1 and scored 1536, very close to the predicted 1505 from the formula. You aren't going to accelerate away very quickly here. No matter how you slice it, the average non-crit heal should be around 1600, not 1950.