Have any warriors tanked HM titan/coil?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Its a matter of doing good design using the class mechanics, you don't need to copy paste everything, but for example warrior, if you don't want to give mitigation, you need to give a larger health pool and ways to regenerate his HP fast in order to MT.
And done no need to copy paste.
If a boss is hitting a warrior for almost 90% of his hp, he should be able to pop a defensive cooldown to regen his health to full right after it.

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

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See, this is where I disagree because there is such a thing as guidelines. You build DPS to do damage, not around casting...heals, for example. You build tanks to hold aggro and mitigate damage. The issue with WAR is that instead of going by a guideline of...hmm...

Ok, let's pretend you have 50 points to put into a character to make them complete. Your baseline tank kit comes with 20 points in straight out mitigation (sans shield blocking, parry procs, and the more colorful defensive cooldowns). A PLD would have the 20 points to start and put 20 more points in mitigation (accounting for Sentinel, Bulwark, and possibly Hallowed Ground), 5 points in damage and 5 points in utility. A SAM could have the starter 20 points, put 10 more into mitigation (via a parry mechanic), 15 in damage and 5 in utility.

By comparison WAR opted to NOT put the starter 20 points into mitigation and instead did a 5:20:20:5 split between minor mitigation (Foresight), self heals, damage and utility. That's where my problem with WAR comes from. It'd be one thing if it had at least gone for the starter set for tanking (20 points in mitigation) then split the rest between damage, self heals and so on. In such a case self heals would work in tandem with mitigation to make a tank that works while also being mechanically different from PLD.

The concept of a WAR keeping themselves up through self-heals is cool and very Diablo-like (Life-leech Barbarians, anyone?), but when you translate it to the context of a WAR taking hits from raid bosses the concept begins to falter, and that's what has raised concerns. As much as I hate tooting the WoW horn, Blizzard realized this with Blood DKs, which is why they implemented the Blood Shield mechanic to give the class mitigation while keeping them a two-hander-focused tank.

Since you were nice enough to be civil about this instead of "z0mg ev3rithyng mu5t b3 nich3s! fUk player choize!1one", I can give you an alternative: A way to increase the frequency of warrior attacks while under the effect of Bloodbath (reducing the GCD to .5 seconds?) and moving the healing bonus from Wrath on to Defiance.

I've beaten Titan as a WAR... but the stigma continues.

Recently I was in a party where I died to a 4500 Mountain Buster. They insisted we leave and I switched to paladin.

Where I proceeded to die to a 2500 Mountain Buster.

So you can't always blame the class. If people can't keep you up, they can't keep you up. Paladin is being used because the party is simply inadequate for the job. It's an "easy button" for people who aren't geared/don't know the fight/don't play their job right. I can't tell you how many times I've been in parties and having to use Hallowed Ground on something that's just easy mode.

That said. Most WARs spam Butchers Block combos and don't properly use/buff their cooldowns. You're not going to tank Titan or anything else end game with an 1100 Inner Beast.

Get that Inner Beast to 2500-3000 and then we're talking. But even then, people don't trust me to do my job right. I'll tell them, "So long as I'm above 5k, it's fine, I'll heal myself. They don't believe me. Then they spam cure and run out of mana and cry.

You don't have to heal me that much when I can heal 1/3 of my HP in a single cooldown. If I'm going to use my cooldown I'll tell you...

But people don't listen. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Paladin is being used because the party is simply inadequate for the job. It's an "easy button" for people who aren't geared/don't know the fight/don't play their job right. I can't tell you how many times I've been in parties and having to use Hallowed Ground on something that's just easy mode.

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I would look at it differently. The fact that a Pal allows a party to be "less adequate" is a major issue. Many people have pointed out that Warriors tanking Coil are doing so undergeared. If you are pushing the envelope, you are frequently doing content with a "less than adequate" group in terms of gear. It's like when a group of incompetent raiders in WoW had a tank get Thunderfury. Regardless of how bad they were or how bad the MT was, they were able to very frequently clear all Vanilla content and rather quickly. If a Pal can allow a less than adequate party to clear content, it also allows an adequate party a greater threshold of mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I would look at it differently. The fact that a Pal allows a party to be "less adequate" is a major issue. Many people have pointed out that Warriors tanking Coil are doing so undergeared. If you are pushing the envelope, you are frequently doing content with a "less than adequate" group in terms of gear. It's like when a group of incompetent raiders in WoW had a tank get Thunderfury. Regardless of how bad they were or how bad the MT was, they were able to very frequently clear all Vanilla content and rather quickly. If a Pal can allow a less than adequate party to clear content, it also allows an adequate party a greater threshold of mistakes.

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I say that many WAR tanking Coil are doing it undergeared AND underskilled and put too much pressure on healers. But that's just my observation.

My current gear is better than DL, plus level 90 axe, but I get blown off so I play a level 70 PLD.

Go figure. :(

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Originally Posted by Eronn

Turns 4 and 5 they are not viable and will never be as good as Paladins. Our healing mechanics are unusable do to the magnitude of the damage. Bloodbath and Storm's Path do not do enough to be noticeable due to the spikes of damage. Inner Beast is only usable in very specific circumstances (ie. desperation to stay alive, Infuriate if off CD), outside of these edges cases it is better to just leave a five stacks of Wrath on.

This is completely false in Turns 4 and 5. You will take upwards of 8000 - 9000 damage in under a second. Even if healers could heal up our massive HP pools to full, we lack the cooldowns required to survive the spike damage that occurs in Turns 4 and 5.

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As a WAR who has completed turn 4 (World 5th I believe) and is working on Turn 5 I strongly agree with the above. There is just no way a WAR can deal with the damage output anywhere close to a PLD in certain phases, at least with the present gear available.

I like to think it was already established that Warriors were designed to be OT's long before this game was actually released. Now here we are raiding content, and lo and behold, Warrior is the optimal off tank.

In a game where you can switch classes with the press of one button, I think it makes perfect sense that the MT/OT roles have been set (more or less) in stone for our two tank classes. It just sucks for people who rolled Warrior because they wanted to MT with a few extra doses of MANLY.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I say that many WAR tanking Coil are doing it undergeared AND underskilled and put too much pressure on healers. But that's just my observation.

My current gear is better than DL, plus level 90 axe, but I get blown off so I play a level 70 PLD.

Go figure. :(

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I think the fixes could be relatively simple. Example, SE could probably increase the HP buff of Defiance from 25% to 50%, make the 15% healing base to Defiance, and wash its hands of the issue going forward. This would give the War a 20% EHP advantage and make them broadly superior in absorbing burst damage but more healing intensive (~8.5% less effective in received heals and less efficient with no block).

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Originally Posted by Vic_Viper

As a WAR who has completed turn 4 (World 5th I believe) and is working on Turn 5 I strongly agree with the above. There is just no way a WAR can deal with the damage output anywhere close to a PLD in certain phases, at least with the present gear available.

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The only way to survive that amount of Damage as PLD would be using Hallowed Ground.

I feel that there is missing information here. I haven't been able to play those later phases, but I know that Damage Mitigation in many fights is a mixture of a DPS race and working with the mechanics of the fight. So I'm going to reserve the "not viable" and "never" until I see it myself.

The truth is, if you want to faceroll content and learn the fight later (which most people do right now) PLD is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Coramac

I think the fixes could be relatively simple. Example, SE could probably increase the HP buff of Defiance from 25% to 50%, make the 15% healing base to Defiance, and wash its hands of the issue going forward. This would give the War a 20% EHP advantage and make them broadly superior in absorbing burst damage but more healing intensive (~8.5% less effective in received heals and less efficient with no block).

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I'm not sure why they would do this. Giving more HP to WAR I feel would really make it OP. For example, right now with Defiance and Thrill of Battle I'm up to almost 8500. If they added more HP I would be over 9000 (!!!!!) in level 70 HQ gear. I would reach Cap HP in Crystal Tower gear.

Adding 15% Healing Base to Defiance add further pressure on Healers to keep the guy topped up as the WAR will see no reason to even bother filling that HP pool himself.

I think that can be fixed adding to defiance a 10% or 20% of damage reduction like shield of oath, that will equal the balance between the pld and war. PLD will have the damages reduction skills and war more hp a some healing skills that i think that need to be improved. (storm path combo only 120 and blood bath between 20 and 40 for hit is....useless). Im too Pld and i think that flash should not share cooldown with others skills.