So, when is VPR getting nerfs? (Frontline)

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Originally Posted by Cidel

That, or they're just too lazy to swap targets.

But wait, where have I seen this before? Oh right, there was another, "hot-button" job that benefitted from baiting auto-pilot players that was often brought-up around here:

I guess a lot of players just get it in their head that the first things to run-up to lead the charge must be the first things killed before anything else should even be considered.

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keep in mind some of us are on console (or literally a freekn gameboy now) and we dont get access to the 3rd party apps that track who is healing and then click a macro to target them etc. Ive played MMOs on PC for years and i know how.. Lets call it what it is, a cheating arms race. PC players can and do cheat as long as possible then just use VPN, buy a level boost, and make adjustments to play longer without getting caught. Have i ever used aimbots or wallhacks? No. Have i used 3rd party addons and macros that auto target and raid marker rogues casting stealth or healers to be announced in raid chat? Yup better believe i did, because it made the game fair. Not fair in the traditional sense but fair in the "devs let everyone else use these cheats labeled as addons" sense. Id be at a severe disadvantage not using the same stuff. Which is what console is, we have zero access to the plethora of advantages a PC user has, and we also have to remove our hand from movement input to target select, and it is a long tab target process to target someone specific in a zerg rather than that solo enemy 4 feet away because we probably all use target closest enemy settings on console. Imagine not having access to a dps meter, you have to just take some guides word for it what materia and 2 minute rotation loop works best meanwhile a PC player using said bannable addon gets the blind eye until they call someones DPS bad. FF14 lets you buy prostitutes for dirty talk at casino mansions owned by people who bot nodes and market undercut 24/7 every 5 mins while server hopping spamming shout and playing a 10 person bard band in limsa with addon music sheet readers all at the same time and its unbanned unless you tell on yourself. Console players might look like bots but at least we have our integrity..

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Originally Posted by UseYour

keep in mind some of us are on console (or literally a freekn gameboy now) and we dont get access to the 3rd party apps that track who is healing and then click a macro to target them etc. Ive played MMOs on PC for years and i know how.. Lets call it what it is, a cheating arms race. PC players can and do cheat as long as possible then just use VPN, buy a level boost, and make adjustments to play longer without getting caught. Have i ever used aimbots or wallhacks? No. Have i used 3rd party addons and macros that auto target and raid marker rogues casting stealth or healers to be announced in raid chat? Yup better believe i did, because it made the game fair. Not fair in the traditional sense but fair in the "devs let everyone else use these cheats labeled as addons" sense. Id be at a severe disadvantage not using the same stuff. Which is what console is, we have zero access to the plethora of advantages a PC user has, and we also have to remove our hand from movement input to target select, and it is a long tab target process to target someone specific in a zerg rather than that solo enemy 4 feet away because we probably all use target closest enemy settings on console. Imagine not having access to a dps meter, you have to just take some guides word for it what materia and 2 minute rotation loop works best meanwhile a PC player using said bannable addon gets the blind eye until they call someones DPS bad. FF14 lets you buy prostitutes for dirty talk at casino mansions owned by people who bot nodes and market undercut 24/7 every 5 mins while server hopping spamming shout and playing a 10 person bard band in limsa with addon music sheet readers all at the same time and its unbanned unless you tell on yourself. Console players might look like bots but at least we have our integrity..

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What are you talking about? "we dont get access to the 3rd party apps that track who is healing and then click a macro to target them"

You know you can see what jobs the enemy team are, right? You can see who are the healers, the ranged, the melee. You can focus target a healer and have an in-game macro command to automatically re-target your focus.

Like come on. Yea, there is cheating in PVP but jfc. Stop with this BS.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

From my own experiences, this didn't happen anyway. And, if it does happen as often as you say (given you said you've lost count of the times), what was the reason for the many complaints about premades before the change?

If roulette teams were often able to flank them, wiping the BH5 alliance of nasties, why was there such an issue over them existing in the first place?

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I've always said it was overblown before the role actions and the more recent change. But I still argued that some job combos were problematic and centered around DRK and have been a proponent of adding a limit to 5 affected targets for AoEs in FLs. And I'd still back this up today, especially in the current ecosystem of FL.
You could destroy a premade team by sandwiching their alliance, which happened a lot in my experience when my team was listening to calls, but it was far from a given. I have also lost count of the probably way more numerous times the team just was deaf to anything, often with only 5 people following.
This required usually the full strength of 2 alliances vs one, and a well executed flank, because usually the first targets to escape were the premade members using their team as a meat shield to survive.
I have however had a lot of cases where even a 2 v 1 ended up with the premade(s) mowing down both alliances at once. Thus why I already used to complain about AoE combo abuses back then.

Today though? With role actions AND this BH change? Hell no. This raises the bar to ludicrous levels of effort. I ain't bother anymore, but good for you if you still have it in you. They keep removing stakes for anything in this game, whether in pve or pvp, so is it such a surprise that nothing feels worth it attempting anymore?

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

Oh yes, there's no doubt that it's failed in the reason it was implemented. That said, if we are to assume that they revert BH back to how it was because the change wasn't being utilised by casual players in the way it was intended, what would be the purpose to making pretty much any system change?

I'm not talking of skill changes/adjustments, I'm talking of FL system alterations (changes to score/BH/objectives etc.)
Whatever change is made, the players who will take the time to work out how to twist it or use it to their advantage the most are the veteran players. Regardless of what the change is, they will continue to work through it. Rouletters, having less care, interest, and experience in PvP are likely to let any change intended to favour them pass by, as they have done with this one.

So what purpose is there to complaining and calling for change, when they refuse to do anything with it when it comes?

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It's never been about forcing the casuals into taking their own fate in their hands.
It's always been about designing around the different populations of players in the mode and ensuring that the whole works.
This new BH change, only half of it works.

So I'd be for increasing even further the BH gains when getting rid of high BH players, and decreasing it further when killing players of lower BH than you are.
BH loss needs to come back. I could even accept a compromise where one can't drop below 50.

Worqor needs to be fully reworked so that it stops encouraging people not pvping. It's worse than shatter in that regard, which is something of a feat to achieve.

Duty Finder queue should try to split premade groups between different alliances.
Duty Finder should also use a hidden elo system like in casual CC to balance teams better.

I'm sure there is a lot of other options that I haven't thought about.

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Originally Posted by TofuLove

Does everyone just need to stop to play around the job because is a viper on the enemy team? What if there are multiple of them? That's too much.

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I understand what you’re trying to say, but Frontline discussions have historically been terrible at separating “solo queue chaos” from an actual organized meta.
People constantly theorycraft scenarios like:

“What if everyone stacked X job?”
“What if 24 VPRs queued together?”

We’ve seen this cycle repeatedly before:

• DRK pull meta panic
• SAM Zantetsuken complaints
• PLD Cover discourse
• SMN ranged AoE complaints
• WAR disruption complaints

But actual matches rarely function that way consistently because Frontline is still fundamentally 72 random players with wildly uneven skill levels and attention spans.
Outside of organized premades, true alliance wide stacking almost never happens

The bigger issue that’s been haunting NA/EU Frontline for years is the massive population of passive ranged players who got used to free damage uptime, low punishment, and melee jobs dying before they could ever reach the backline.
Like I said, the meta has changed.
Aggressive melee jobs are now punishing that behavior much harder (New Battle High), and Viper is simply the most visible example of it right now.
Yes, VPR will probably get toned down eventually and I agree with that.
But the larger issue is that the old “ranged superiority” environment is collapsing.
Their free ride is ending.
And even if VPR gets nerfed, another job will eventually take its place because the underlying shift in Frontline pacing and incentives is still there.