Please make future Dungeons LESS like hallways...

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Deep Dungeons are non-linear, and yet, 4 randomly matched players still manage to clear them.

MSQ dungeons are linear because… well, there's just not that much to do in them except enjoy the scenery.

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Even deep dungeons have some degree of linearity to them. Get from the entrance to the exit, get from floor 1 to 100. The layout, and obstacles may change from floor to floor, but the main goal does not. The only times the goal changes is for things like aetherpool or hoard farming which then, a group should be on the same page.

They can't do that. All fun and uniqueness in dungeon design must be sacrificed at the alter of Duty Support.

It's NPCs first, players second in this MMO. So states The Formula.

It's a bit ironic for me but I recall so many threads back in ARR and HW around here complaining that roulettes were a drag and taking too long because the routes weren't streamlined. Or reports of conflicts because people wanted to get their map progress going to that one room off the way but everyone else wanted to blitz through and be done.

I still see this mentality of wanting to blitz through roulettes and be done. So I don't think a return to the old style would really go over well.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Even deep dungeons have some degree of linearity to them. Get from the entrance to the exit, get from floor 1 to 100. The layout, and obstacles may change from floor to floor, but the main goal does not. The only times the goal changes is for things like aetherpool or hoard farming which then, a group should be on the same page.

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That's a borderline useless definition of "linearity." Every instance has a spot where you enter and a spot where you exit. The question is how you draw the line between those two spots.

In a modern dungeon, you… just walk forward. Always and forever. There are no choices, no decisions to be made.

In a deep dungeon, you at least have to wander about to find the exit. Or choose to use a pomander to reveal the map. And then there are choices about which mobs you'll kill vs. avoid, which chests you'll go after, etc. Sure, the decision making process might be the same from one floor to the next, or from one run to the next, but at least there is a decision making process.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

Efficiency geeks will only do what's most efficient and rip anyone else wanting to do anything else. They'll see if that side room improves efficiency, and if it offers a drop that goes for 10k or whatever (which is a decent amount for a non-trivial portion of the player base that isn't into crafting and gathering) they'll ignore it and berate anyone that tries to do it. This is 100% the player base's fault for trying to streamline everything down to a literal cattle chute and attacking anyone that wants to deviate from their idea of the way the game was meant to be played. Those 30 seconds are SO valuable, you know.

While I do wish dungeons had more personality and felt more alive than the FFXIII corridor stomp we have now, I know there's a large portion of people in the game that wouldn't have it any other way. If I had to choose between how you get Fine Wax and the current approach, I hate to say it, but I'd take the current approach. It's less drama.

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Did you... read what I wrote or are you just quoting me at random? Or maybe my non native english is just so trash that I'm unintelligible, I guess..

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I think disjointing dungeons from the msq could help

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I have to agree!

Sometimes we get a MSQ-related dungeon that just feels... for the sake of it? Like Aetherfont by the end of Endwalker or the first dungeon in Dawntrail (can't spell that name) that ends up being generic and pointless.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I have to agree!

Sometimes we get a MSQ-related dungeon that just feels... for the sake of it? Like Aetherfont by the end of Endwalker or the first dungeon in Dawntrail (can't spell that name) that ends up being generic and pointless.

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Everything is to the service of the formula, not the other way around. They do need a dungeon at every two odd levels in the vanilla expansions and they do require their writers to find explanations for what should happen there specifically, and imagine a place for it. It's extremely constrained by design.
It's the same thing with areas, every expansion must have 6 of them, and they do have find ways for the story to fit in each and make you go through each in turn. When you think about it, HW did it the funniest with Sea of Clouds literally being a 100% filler area that they clearly had no idea how to fill, but they still went with it because they had a cool air islands design.

Make new dungeons like variant dungeons. Have branching paths but not at the start. Make it so you progress a bit and then choose a path to go to. Each decision you face a different boss, rather than the variant dungeon's same first boss gimmick. The final boss can remain the same if SE wants to keep a sort of theme etc. Reward players by giving them extra crafting materials, tomes, or loot for going different routes. Maybe have a section with no mobs and just traps. An area that is dangerous but something that doesn't take up too much time or something they can't cheese through.

I would say the best path to this is to detach level capstone dungeons from the main story... Would give them more freedom in terms of level design and in terms of engagement/reward factor.


Would also help the story telling to be honest...

If they kept it attached to main story at capstone, then I just don't see it working as intended or hoped...

Yeah i would love too see more open and interesting dungeons myself. The current formulae has grown stale.

My concern is we will go back to the problem ARR had.
Back then if you were say, tank for a group and you deviated from the fastest route, you would get booted. People would literally rather wait 20 minutes to get a new party than spend 2 minutes on the non optimal path.
I never understood the logic but i imagine it would return if dungeons changed.
People don't find them fun, so they just want to clear them as quickly as possible to get their daily roulette rewards.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, While they do need to open dungeons up more, they need to also be innovative to make people want to run them outside of the optimal route.
I assumed that V&C was a test too see how players would like a more multi choice, dynamic approach to dungeons, but it was implemented badly and was not rewarding so it failed.