Re: Regarding the Use of Third-Party Programs and Player Safety

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Originally Posted by ovIm

If someone can code something that clings onto the game to extract data, that individual can also code an addon to Wireshark that filters FFXIV network data and saves it in a nice, readable format. Wireshark openly supports plugins, after all.

Add to the fact that an AntiCheat is a very invasive bit of software with a plethora of problems. What you are not seeing is that implementing an AntiCheat will most likely cause many issues with regular playing folk as well. Imagine the AntiCheat gives a false positive and bans your account. Do you trust Square Enix Support to resolve that, with how they are handling this dilemma right now? What if they buy in an AntiCheat like Denuvo that is proven to be an actual issue with customer PCs, in terms of performance. Too many AC solutions also hook very deep into your computer, running constantly. Just look at all the problems Valorants AntiCheat caused.
Asking for an AntiCheat implementation is literally inviting the devil into your home. What about Steam Deck players, they would be excluded from playing as well.

AntiCheat is literally the worst kind of solution to this problem. I'd rather they implement something properly server side.

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So now you're requiring people to know how to get, install wireshark, and now modify wireshark with plugins and export and extract that data.
You act like requiring a massive amount more tech literacy is the same as a github repo where you plug it into the dalamud launcher and it installs and works instantly.

You guys are so concerned with a perfect solution with no security holes you're ignoring any mitigation or path forward that reduces the spread and efficacy of the plugin.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

This doesn't make sense. The blacklist feature blocks another player and their alts. Therefore, the client needs to know some info about those alts so it can block them.

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No it doesn't.

The block list should be server side so it can determine if communication should be allowed without the client needing to parse that information itself.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

It would deal with the rampant botting and cheating though, but that's a separate conversation.

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WoW's had custom anticheat from day 1 and it's never even impeded bots.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

So now you're requiring people to know how to get, install wireshark, and now modify wireshark with plugins and export and extract that data.
You act like requiring a massive amount more tech literacy is the same as a github repo where you plug it into the dalamud launcher and it installs and works instantly.

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You are deliberately misunderstanding me right now. Most people using the plugin did not code it themselves either, or do you think they all compiled it from the github source? They grabbed the finished plugin and installed it.

It would need just one bad actor to code something like that for Wireshark and publish it, and as we have seen with this issue, there are people weird enough to do that.

No tech literacy is required from the general populace, just from a few coders with a desire to scrape the data.

You are so blind to the general issue that you suggest to make the program FFXIV worse for everyone in an attempt to fix a problem that cannot be fixed with the solution you propose.

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

It makes perfect sense in the world where the client is not given authority to do account wide blocking. When you block me, as in, my character - you, as a client, is not supposed to be entitled to information beyond that. The server is supposed to know what other characters I have, not you. You only need to get appropriate information about the characters around the world based on what your blacklist is. How that blacklist to character is resolved is for the server to decide, not you.
Does it make more sense? Yes, this is more complex than just blocking individual characters, but more often than not - if you can’t make it right just don’t make it at all is the best approach.

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You're taking about moving the whole feature server side, which is different to what I was replying to. Moving the feature server side is an option but it's vastly more complex and expensive. Whether it's for much of a gain is open for discussion. Although it's how a small, small number of players use alts, I don't know if SE consider them as a security mechanism to mitigate stalking. Has there ever been a statement to this effect? I doubt they view alts as a matter of privacy, so they probably view the problem caused by this exposed ID as being already resolved by the blacklist feature - your stalker might know of your alts but they can't harass you in game once you blocked them. Determined stalkers will create an entirely new account to bypass your blacklist, but the reporting feature is in place to help people as well. I don't know, I'm only speculating based on what SE have and haven't said so far, but I suspect they might have a different perspective on the whole thing. Maybe they'll give a statement some point in the future that makes their stance clearer.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

WoW's had custom anticheat from day 1 and it's never even impeded bots.

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That isn't true.

Bots in WoW are banned incredibly frequently. They make more money than it costs to simply buy new accounts and start botting again, so there is a constant stream of bot accounts. Automation and botting among the playerbase is pretty much unheard of because players don't want to have the accounts that they've worked on for years banned.

FFXIV has the same problem in that there is a comparable amount of RMT botting to WoW, but botting and automation is also incredibly common among players because SE don't do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

So now you're requiring people to know how to get, install wireshark, and now modify wireshark with plugins and export and extract that data.
You act like requiring a massive amount more tech literacy is the same as a github repo where you plug it into the dalamud launcher and it installs and works instantly.

You guys are so concerned with a perfect solution with no security holes you're ignoring any mitigation or path forward that reduces the spread and efficacy of the plugin.

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the plugin is already spread. the data is already out there, collated at that. people don't even need to sniff packets, just find the right person and ask nicely or pay for the information.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

You are deliberately misunderstanding me right now. Most people using the plugin did not code it themselves either, or do you think they all compiled it from the github source? They grabbed the finished plugin and installed it.

It would need just one bad actor to code something like that for Wireshark and publish it, and as we have seen with this issue, there are people weird enough to do that.

No tech literacy is required from the general populace, just from a few coders with a desire to scrape the data.

You are so blind to the general issue that you suggest to make the program FFXIV worse for everyone in an attempt to fix a problem that cannot be fixed with the solution you propose.

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I'm not misunderstanding anything, you break the plugin and it makes it 100x more complicated to install and use, which limits the userbase and the damage. You cannot 100% solve the issue of bad actors but basic security on the files and packets for your game through an anticheat is the basic step to getting to something that's not just wide open.
FFXIV isn't any worse for anyone but cheaters if you put in an anticheat and honestly I have no sympathy for botters, cheaters, or people who mod to do things like ahrass other players. They can leave for all I care.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I'm not misunderstanding anything, you break the plugin and it makes it 100x more complicated to install and use, which limits the userbase and the damage. You cannot 100% solve the issue of bad actors but basic security on the files and packets for your game through an anticheat is the basic step to getting to something that's not just wide open.
FFXIV isn't any worse for anyone but cheaters if you put in an anticheat and honestly I have no sympathy for botters, cheaters, or people who mod to do things like ahrass other players. They can leave for all I care.

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For starters, Linux could break with a ring lvl 0 anti cheat......and that's even before we even get into the problems of having kernel level anticheat in the first place. I know Riot caused a bit of an issue on League with vanguard causing boot loops.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

For starters, Linux could break with a ring lvl 0 anti cheat.

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The game doesn't support Linux.