Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

PVP walking wouldn't work in PVE because of one key factor; interrupting cast time.

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This is how you would do it:

Tap button: Deals X potency, functions as standard weaponskill.
Press button and hold: Deals X + kt potency, where k is a multiplier and t is the charge time. If the button is released early, the action is released at that potency. When maximum charge is reached, the effect is released automatically and the GCD is activated.

You can take this design approach with both walking and standing casts.

Another potential fix for canceling casts is letting Peloton cancel casts when used in combat. Also they could let phys ranged with walking casts keep their weaker instant weapon skills sorta like how SCH has Ruin II.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is how you would do it:

Tap button: Deals X potency, functions as standard weaponskill.
Press button and hold: Deals X + kt potency, where k is a multiplier and t is the charge time. If the button is released early, the action is released at that potency. When maximum charge is reached, the effect is released automatically and the GCD is activated.

You can take this design approach with both walking and standing casts.

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Wouldn’t this cause tons of issues with latency?
People would just complain about ‘my screen said I was at 60% but I only got the damage of a 40% charge, damn you Yoshi-P!’, or accidentally holding when they meant to tap. Plus you’d see the forums flooded with posts complaining ‘I have to choose between holding for max damage or firing off infinity double-oGCDs, ffxiv is dead!’. ‘ I tried to tap during phase but it accidentally started charging now my opener is ruined, jail the devs!’ Etc.

Again I love the idea of phys ranged casts (song cast times plz), but frankly there is literally no way they can work in PvE whatsoever without causing a tidal wave of heavy backlash

There are lots of solutions to intentionally canceling walking casts, we will just have to settle on the best solution, not necessarily the right solution.

They tried doing that in Heavensward, they got a lot of backlash from the role as a whole(both BRD and MCH, but mostly BRD); even if it was just their design at the time. If you try to reimplement cast bars onto rPhys, there will be a riot, especially since right now jobs are a bit more busier during burst windows. If you really wanted to implement them that badly, consider how channel abilities work(DNC Improvisation comes to mind) and get back with me on that - otherwise, Valence makes solid points on the issues of PvP mixing with PvE.

That doesn't mean all aspects of PvP can't be thrown into PvE, though...like AoE Wildfire.

The solution is identical to standard casts, except for the fact that you now get partial credit for cancelling (and you can retain some movement while doing so). Magical Ranged could benefit from implementing 'channeled' actions as well.

You would likely end up switching to more of a Magical DPS style weave, though. Casts always come at the expense of APM, so if your primary enjoyment comes from speed and mechanical execution over planning and spreadsheets, then you'd need to look at a different design direction. This concept just explores the 'continuum' between two very different playstyles that already exist in the game.

MCH should get the walking casts and it's damage bumped up a lot to compensate. The PvP walking cast would work great on MCH with its simple rotation and (hopeful) emphasis on doing a lot of damage. I don't even think they need to rework the job much at all to accommodate walking casts besides adding an ability that isn't Hypercharge to use as a movement tool when you haven't planned your movement out correctly (i.e. Scathe/Ruin II).

People always cite HW as a "failure" of phys ranged walking cast without actually considering why it was received that way - because it was lazily tacked onto BRD and people didn't have the option of choosing a phys ranged without casts. MCH was designed with the casts in mind and as a result wasn't really the target of the "remove casts" debacle. It was just BRD that was the issue.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

MCH should get the walking casts and it's damage bumped up a lot to compensate. The PvP walking cast would work great on MCH with its simple rotation and (hopeful) emphasis on doing a lot of damage. I don't even think they need to rework the job much at all to accommodate walking casts besides adding an ability that isn't Hypercharge to use as a movement tool when you haven't planned your movement out correctly (i.e. Scathe/Ruin II).

People always cite HW as a "failure" of phys ranged walking cast without actually considering why it was received that way - because it was lazily tacked onto BRD and people didn't have the option of choosing a phys ranged without casts. MCH was designed with the casts in mind and as a result wasn't really the target of the "remove casts" debacle. It was just BRD that was the issue.

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Gonna say this knowing full well I was not playing in Heavensward, and did not play HW BRD, but HW bow mage wishes it were current PVP bow mage. If done right, walking casts could also work very well on BRD as well, but it would need more adjustments than MCH would need to accommodate getting walking casts. Wasn't the problem with HW caster BRD it only became a bow mage at end game, and the leveling process did not prepare players for that playstyle?

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Wasn't the problem with HW caster BRD it only became a bow mage at end game, and the leveling process did not prepare players for that playstyle?

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I think it was more that Bard’s toolkit was left as being entirely designed around hitting procs reactively which could become impossible with the cast times. And since there were no charges you could end up drifting cooldowns (by like 1.5s but still annoying lol) or missing a Bloodletter proc.

Then there’s the whole ‘mobility’ weirdness. Outside of slidecasting Bards had literally no means of ‘instant cast gcd’ because Minuet applied to all existing weaponskills, and ranged couldn’t use Swiftcast. Ultimately people developed a workaround; either cross-classing the Dragoon skill Feint, which wasn’t affected by Minuet and thus could function as a ‘Ruin II’ type insta-cast, or just toggling Minuet off (which would mostly tank your damage and cause the same issues as old Cleric Stance with wonky application).

I don’t think it’s as prevalent now as back then but the main design philosophy for Bard at the time could be described as ‘high burst then constantly bleeds damage’, but Minuet got in the way of the methods you’d use to minimise the ‘dipping’. Ironically they designed Paean as basically the exact same as the other songs; it was a literal spell but it only had the debuff immunity and not the Esuna effect itself. It was swiftly changed (like within the first few HW patches I’m sure) because again, people absolutely would not accept cast times on Bard. They were all simply too antithetical to what players believe(d) Bard should be (max APM RNG based ultra proc DoT hitter with passive support). Hence, when Stormblood came, all but one single spell remained in Bard’s toolkit, Foe’s Requiem.

Honestly I think the only reason Foe Requiem survived into Stormblood was purely because the developers forgot it existed lol. The ‘Bard community’ made one thing extremely clear; they absolutely will not accept cast times or spells on Bard. Which, makes me pretty sad, but I just don’t main it anymore lol. Also I don’t think anyone liked needing to manage their MP. Which again, is sad to me because that was an aspect I really enjoyed, but it is what it is. Cant have everything my way or anything for that matter lol *cries into flute*

Basically people hated that Minuet’s cast times ran counter to what they valued most in Bard; high APM and double-weaving proc-based gameplay. Thus, the birth of the Bard we have today; high APM, proc heavy, support becoming incredibly passive and toned down, middle-ground personal dps between Dancer and Machinist. (Despite how it sounds those aren’t criticisms of current Bard just where I’d say we’re at by now)

Mage bard was problematic because it was 90% of what you were doing since it was the highest DPS. I don't think it was a bad idea persay having cast times on bard, but only ever having cast times and especially caster casts where you couldn't move was rough.