What happened to job inter-play? Was it any good?

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

read your post just now. I find the better I get at the game the more I enjoy unexpected chaos. This is why I enjoy alliance raids, especially ones full of people who do not remember anything from it but I know the raid well

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Save for the rare instance or two when a trial or 8-man goes awry, alliance raids are almost always the go-to ones for me if I want to... y'know, actually be a bit more engaged in healing.
These raids have the most potential for chaos, people just running around, sometimes getting hit by X or Y mechanic. Funnest time is to heal through these raids on week one. Oh god so much chaos. The amount of people just eating mechanics is catastrophic or just barely so. It's the latter when I just enjoy healing the most: When you know you and your co-healer can save a run that appears to be heading for a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If damage reductions, let alone specifically party-wide damage reductions, are the domain of tanks, what the heck are Sage and Scholar? Are their main feature just that they're role-swapped tanks?

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They kinda are. But they've always had shields in this game, because White Mage used to have Stone Skin, so it's just how it is.

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Look at any other game and you'll find that offering external sustain, especially AoE sustain, is predominantly an element of healing, not tanking.

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Well, yes, I said sustain/healing was a healer thing.

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What does the "control" of Reprisal and Divine Veil --those tools being in the game and certain AoEs therefore being tuned around them-- offer that less blanket, more flexibly timed tools like Succor or Sacred Soil did not?

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Reprisal and Divine Veil have no cast time. But also as we were discussing, the concept of a barrier healer steps into the "protect" identity that tanks are meant to have.

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What should matter is that whatever roles (be they 2 or 3 or 5 or 12) the game decides ought exist should not have its most interesting/synergetic skills rendered redundant by others among their own skills (to the net result of less interesting play -- say, if Paladin could just spam AoE barriers instead of bothering with positioning) nor rendered directly¹ or consistently² redundant other roles' skills (such as there being so many cross-role AoE miti skills that the difference between inevitable death and zero GCD shields being necessary becomes a finer and finer point of balance).

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Yes, regardless of if they are stepping on eachother's toes, it has certainly got to a point where everyone steps on eachother's toes an awful lot, like how there was a savage challenge to mitigate all of the damage from the 4 adds that enrage in P5S, which was successfully executed by stacking every jobs' mit. Just 1 or 2 of those adds normally wiped the party if they exploded.

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such as CC never being useful simply because one can always kill all enemies before tanks run out of mitigation. However, that's almost always more an overarching tuning issue, be that through relative role strength or simple lack of difficulty.

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For sure there is a night and day difference between enemies in this game and other MMORPGs. We not only don't have elite trash mobs (except hunts in the open world), item level thoroughly makes them a joke very quickly. The abilities we all get by level 90 just make that even more the case to where tanks are soloing big pulls with the greatest of ease.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They kinda are. But they've always had shields in this game, because White Mage used to have Stone Skin, so it's just how it is.

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If I heal an ally and a portion of overhealing increases their maximum HP for a brief duration as not to waste said healing... that's a healer, while if I heal an ally and a portion of the healing is also done as a barrier, effectively increasing their maximum HP for a short duration... that's not?

Heals also protect people from death. As does dodging. What makes on-ally blanket barriers the domain of tanks?

I could see a Ninja summoning a Shadow Clone to taunt an enemy and those near it while active, lasting up to X seconds or until a couple seconds after taking Y damage being considered a tanking ability; it results in decreased need for party sustain which in turn can result in net rDPS increase, all by redirecting and/or reposition enemy offenses. But Succor and Sacred Soil? They're simple AoE sustain that happens to increase max eHP along with current, the only difference for which is one-shots (or attacks too near to each other to be split by later sustain). But not all that helps prevent one-shots is necessarily tanking, especially when it is completely independent of (in no way requires) redirecting or repositioning the fight or the enemy's offense.

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Well, yes, I said sustain/healing was a healer thing.

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What are you defining as sustain here, just for clarity? Just another word for healing, or where things like Macrocosmos would be included where it normally wouldn't (under "healing")?
%DR also sustains you and is generally considered "sustain" among multi-MMO theorycrafters (simply "scaled" or "percentile" instead of "flat", and "max-eHP increasing").

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Reprisal and Divine Veil have no cast time.

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I didn't say they did, but neither is that any significant increase in flexibility compared to Succor (limited only by MP) or Sacred Soil (30s CD; consuming one of three per-minute resource charges).

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But also as we were discussing, the concept of a barrier healer steps into the "protect" identity that tanks are meant to have.

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Then so does killing enemies: Try not dying to a DPS check without damage; unless flagrantly undertuned, protecting the party from that... requires DPS.

Or consider damage-dealing itself: every role deals damage, yet not every class will be of the "Damage" role. There is no reason to define roles in such ways.

Well-crafted roles have far more to do with creating a perspective or mindset from which fun and interesting gameplay can happen without being quite so thrown to the winds with random party-mates, generally by reducing the personal gameplay otherwise more directly available to you instead to a tailored, synergetic cluster therefrom.

That's not just "Damage", "Protect", and "Make up for what passed through Protect", though. In games not so laughably easy or rigid, even a DPS's decisions as to when to burst and against what can be life or death for their party, and its the enhanced ability to leverage those dynamics that makes them that role, not merely that they do damage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What are you defining as sustain here, then? %DR also sustains you.

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Heals and regens. I don't see DR as sustain, personally.

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I didn't say they did, but neither is that any significant increase in flexibility compared to Succor (limited only by MP) or Sacred Soil (30s CD; consuming one of three per-minute resource charges).

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All I can really say here is that I've used Reprisal and the raid-wide mit many, many times to save parties from wiping, whether due to not being at max HP or due to vuln stacks or both.

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Or consider damage-dealing itself: every role deals damage, yet not every class will be of the "Damage" role. There is no reason to define roles in such ways.

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There is certainly a concept for a tank just purely holding aggro and mitigating. This was done when clearing raids on blue mage, because everything hits them a lot harder than normal jobs. I do personally prefer tanks to do at least just-noticeable damage, but it has probably just got out of hand like everything else at this point, given how tanks have gone from barely making a dent on trash packs to single-handedly destroying them with their burst.

From what I can see statistically, healers don't do much damage at all despite their best effort, but they have always felt rather impactful with AoE.

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Well-crafted roles have far more to do with creating a perspective or mindset from which fun and interesting gameplay can happen without being quite so thrown to the winds with random party-mates, generally by reducing the personal gameplay otherwise more directly available to you instead to a tailored, synergetic cluster therefrom.

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That is one way to do it, it's just got to a point where everyone can rather fend for themselves or alternatively just carry out the role of the person who is supposed to do it. Whether it's a DPS tanking, a healer tanking, or a tank healing, or 4 dps really handling themselves. That in itself might not be so bad if it wasn't for how samey it was and how a lot of it was a result of Role Actions (or actions all of that role have).

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even a DPS's decisions as to when to burst and against what can be life or death for their party, and its the enhanced ability to leverage those dynamics that makes them that role, not merely that they do damage.

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I think the unique strength of a DPS is their burst actually. I can say that it never felt like my damage on a tank could really make this sort of difference, but now it absolutely can. If something's going to happen sometimes I can accelerate some of my burst on a tank so there isn't a wipe and it just never felt like that was a thing to me before.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's the thing though: most of the past attempts at inter-role interaction pointed out as such... weren't actually interactive across roles except in terms of capacity (i.e., no more than Shroud of Saints or Second Wind did from the start).

In the vast majority of cases, it was either effectively just an in-role CD for which you could more directly and impactfully shunt loss onto someone else (by starving them of resource or crippling their and thereby wasting party output to support your negligence in a way redundant with and less interesting than, say, your ability to greed mechanics), or they simply meant that you now had a group mitigation skill available as DPS (to use of schedule because it's not single-target and is therefore noncontextual/nonreactive anyways). They were uninteresting forms of "free" resource around which the game was tuned anyways (ultimately meaning that you're simply punished for not using them as near to on CD as can be leveraged, with most having no barrier to such thoughtless use for effective play).

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I have always agreed that everything wasn't perfect back then, especially enmity mitigators that were indeed mostly used on CD and could probably have benefited from a little more than that, but I'm not ready to agree on the likes of manasong, because like shroud they were not to be used immediately on CD. And unlike shroud, you also didn't always use them on CD after first use either, because comps changed, and encounter context also changed. Some had downtime here or there that allowed people to regen their resources naturally while some didn't have any. Some had deaths and seriously taxing moments (huge bursts of healing, notably winged justice or last phases of both parts of O12S, etc). My healers also could have different skill levels, or gear creep during weekly farms that smoothed things out a lot and could dramatically change whether my support was warranted or not over the course of weeks/months.

Manasong has almost never been required on cooldown, and that's what kept it apart from quelling strikes for instance. On top of it, it was a gigantic dps loss for the bard or machinist to swap to MP/TP party refresh (-15%) back in HW. Tactician in SB was a lot more streamlined and used on CD specifically due to its less varied nature than MP and became two dimensional like quelling before it, except in... dungeons! MCH was an incredible TP powerhouse in dungeons due to Tactician AND good uses of flamethrower under overheat that consumed no TP and dealt massive damage. As a rphys player since HW I strongly, vehemently disagree that party resource support was used on CD in most cases, unlike a few other things. Even moreso, you're only talking about optimal scenari at best while in actuality the big majority of cases was not only run in savage, but also in casual content where everything could be all over the place, and the use of resource support skills and whatnot could be night and day in comparison. There was a lot of scales to it.

Other little details that could change everything completely:
- Foe Requiem optimization which was the best raid buff ever created for the amount of skill and team planning you could pour into it to align it on bursts and get the most out of it seeing it was not based on basic cooldowns but on the BRD's MP. In SB if your caster could also devote its Manashift to it, it would also change how you'd use manasong.
- Due to the way the party bonus worked back then the gains weren't as dramatic and only affected the roles you brought (except for the VIT bonus but you always had tanks for it anyway, like MND), and it was a lot more common than today (which is never) to see double rphys or double caster comps with 2 melees for example. This also changed dramatically the way a party would support MP and TP.

However I've always agreed that everything was far from perfect, and things could have been made better here and there (notably on aggro if just by letting the whole rphys roster access shadewalker type abilities). My fundamental problem is that SE being SE, they decided to axe everything instead of improving, and i'll never agree that their choice was the correct one considering how one dimensional everything has become now in terms of systems and facets, which seriously limits any kind of creative design whether we're talking about encounters, jobs, roles, identities, etc, for the very reason that the depth of the battle system directly informs all of those like a motherlode.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Granted, that may be largely due to mere context: If healers, in turn, didn't have any regularly available AoE skills by which to increase party maximum eHP, then Divine Veil could save healers from needing to rapidly barrier every non-tank before a big AoE. Even then, though... that just seems to step on healers' shoes more so than augment party play overall, whereas something like a passive Cover-like mechanic could allow tanks to stack on and absorb some of the damage for two squishies, allowing healers just enough time to fortify everyone else (be that for immediate survival alone or just to avoid dropping low enough to be afflicted by an additional DoT, or to purge a DoT-removed-only-by-getting-back-above-X%-HP in reasonable time and MP, or the like could feel more targeted, impactful, and responsive without stepping on healers' toes. I.e., interplay without excessive redundancy.

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I still do think that every tank should get their own flavor of cover and all of those should be made not only actually useful beyond niche uses, but also fundamental in tank gameplay. Nothing embodies more tanking than jumping in front of your allies to shield them from certain death, and that's what the current PLD Guardian pvp ability does in a stellar way. We need to get more random prey markers that actually murder people, or even things giving status afflictions that could also be deflected at hit with such cover abilities, etc.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Manasong has almost never been required on cooldown, and that's what kept it apart from quelling strikes for instance. On top of it, it was a gigantic dps loss for the bard or machinist to swap to MP/TP party refresh (-15%) back in HW.

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20% in 2.0. 15% shortly after. 10% by 3.3. But that's solely for Mage's Ballad. Promoted Bishop (HW MCH "Manasong") never had a percent penalty. It only dropped your separate turret tick damage, as it did not attack while Promoted.

Again, I thought pre-Stormblood Ballad was basically fine; they just needed to lose their GCD cost so that they wouldn't be obliged to be used as for as near to an entire MP bar as (A) could be delayed until after Foe's and (B) done without overlapping with DoT reapplications. (Promoted Bishop? Less so, since it had no impact on your rotation, only on your AA damage, which then made it have no interaction with your rotation from which to vary its optimal length even slightly.)

And, thereafter, when they were replaced by rigid CDs? While you'd delay your first use of Manasong slightly (using Tactician instead for your first threat drop, but not delaying it so far that the other Ranger's FR or HC wouldn't get the full extension from it) in SB, you would thereafter use it at some 98% of optimal value... by hitting it on CD. It also specifically encouraged double-ranged not just due to further exploiting DRG but also because each Ranged then propped up each other's MP-spending raidbuff, which in turn made DRG a near must-have across the expansion, frequently leaving only one flexible space until going full caster-comp or Brotherhood comp.

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My fundamental problem is that SE being SE, they decided to axe everything instead of improving, and i'll never agree that their choice was the correct one considering how one dimensional everything has become now in terms of systems and facets, which seriously limits any kind of creative design whether we're talking about encounters, jobs, roles, identities, etc, for the very reason that the depth of the battle system directly informs all of those like a motherlode.

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Agreed. I just don't think the direction they went in Stormblood was, outside of perhaps Rescue and Mana Shift, entirely for the worse, nor that a buttons-centric approach would ever have been the right one for such interplay. Button count additions should be a solution of last resort -- sometimes useful enough as keystone or capstone to an already good idea to warrant having, but not something one should include for mere appearance of complexity (which, without those underlying prior solutions, tends to be mere illusion).

Tangent:

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things could have been made better here and there (notably on aggro if just by letting the whole rphys roster access shadewalker type abilities)

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There's also something to be said for job-specific / unique skills, though, such as in Ninja alone having Shadewalker. Should Monk have also granted AoE Refresh? Should BLM have been able to nullify the next incoming debuff against an ally? Where does one draw that line?

While I'd be all for more skillshot attacks aimed at random or non-tank targets that would, in effect, give other tanks (and DPS with defensives, in a pinch) frequent access to functionality akin to Cover, I'd prefer a similar more-sophisticated solution to Enmity (e.g., unseen and less seen attacks split their Enmity among all known attackers, such that a tank or ranged could get an early Enmity lead to retain that threat if others attack from somewhere other than the front)... or to leave that as a feature for Ninja alone (just as Bard's Warden's Paeon and the Paladin's [longer-range] Cover --perhaps Paladin's and target's Defense and Magic Defense combined against incoming attacks-- and BLM's Mana Wall and SMN's Phoenix heals and RDM's Verraise would remain theirs alone). No, I don't consider Trick Attack utility; it was just rDPS around which Ninja would be tuned anyways, even if around not quite perfect exploitation, and it concentrated party damage no more than simply swapping out another un-bursty DPS for a more-bursty DPS would have.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't agree on that because I believe that tanks' job is to protect the party from damage.

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I'd rather say that a tank's job is to take damage on behalf of the rest of the party. They stand between the sources of damage and the would-be targets. They redirect damage onto themselves. Their HP pools, armor, and personal abilities make doing that feasible and not a death sentence.

If you want generic party wide damage mitigations, conjurer is there and waiting for you. :p

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Originally Posted by Valence

I still do think that every tank should get their own flavor of cover and all of those should be made not only actually useful beyond niche uses, but also fundamental in tank gameplay. Nothing embodies more tanking than jumping in front of your allies to shield them from certain death, and that's what the current PLD Guardian pvp ability does in a stellar way. We need to get more random prey markers that actually murder people, or even things giving status afflictions that could also be deflected at hit with such cover abilities, etc.

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Yes, more of all that, please.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'd rather say that a tank's job is to take damage on behalf of the rest of the party.

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Then how would you explain: tank limit break, the STR/INT down that became Reprisal, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, etc. The point of taking damage on behalf of the party is to protect them from damage, but this is also achieved in the aforementioned ways.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I still do think that every tank should get their own flavor of cover and all of those should be made not only actually useful beyond niche uses, but also fundamental in tank gameplay. Nothing embodies more tanking than jumping in front of your allies to shield them from certain death, and that's what the current PLD Guardian pvp ability does in a stellar way. We need to get more random prey markers that actually murder people, or even things giving status afflictions that could also be deflected at hit with such cover abilities, etc.

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I commend you for these great ideas for tank play. Mobs and bosses would be more interesting if they sometimes forced enmity towards dps or healer and you need to use "cover" on that person and then provoke back. Dynamic stuff like that is so needed in this game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

20% in 2.0. 15% shortly after. 10% by 3.3. But that's solely for Mage's Ballad. Promoted Bishop (HW MCH "Manasong") never had a percent penalty. It only dropped your separate turret tick damage, as it did not attack while Promoted.

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The turret loss of damage when switched to MP/TP promotion was approximately 15% if I remember correctly. Perhaps different in HW now that I think about it, but the percentage of damage of the job coming from the turret in SB was about 15% iirc (which included detonation). Maybe I remember wrong and would have to recheck the website that makes yoshi sad though. Either way it was most logically in line with BRD's if so.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And, thereafter, when they were replaced by rigid CDs? While you'd delay your first use of Manasong slightly (using Tactician instead for your first threat drop, but not delaying it so far that the other Ranger's FR or HC wouldn't get the full extension from it) in SB, you would thereafter use it at some 98% of optimal value... by hitting it on CD. It also specifically encouraged double-ranged not just due to further exploiting DRG but also because each Ranged then propped up each other's MP-spending raidbuff, which in turn made DRG a near must-have across the expansion, frequently leaving only one flexible space until going full caster-comp or Brotherhood comp.

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Quite easily fixed if SE really had wanted to do anything about it, but I guess it's easier to just nuke the whole thing and throw the baby with the bathwater.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I'd be all for more skillshot attacks aimed at random or non-tank targets that would, in effect, give other tanks (and DPS with defensives, in a pinch) frequent access to functionality akin to Cover, I'd prefer a similar more-sophisticated solution to Enmity (e.g., unseen and less seen attacks split their Enmity among all known attackers, such that a tank or ranged could get an early Enmity lead to retain that threat if others attack from somewhere other than the front)... or to leave that as a feature for Ninja alone (just as Bard's Warden's Paeon and the Paladin's [longer-range] Cover --perhaps Paladin's and target's Defense and Magic Defense combined against incoming attacks-- and BLM's Mana Wall and SMN's Phoenix heals and RDM's Verraise would remain theirs alone). No, I don't consider Trick Attack utility; it was just rDPS around which Ninja would be tuned anyways, even if around not quite perfect exploitation, and it concentrated party damage no more than simply swapping out another un-bursty DPS for a more-bursty DPS would have.

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I'll take anything that re-adds some manner of depth to the core system. Most people those days just argue about homogenization, 2min meta, all those things, but they're just going after the tip of the icerberg, which is attached to the actual immersed colossal chunk that is the progressive loss of the rpg battle system after ShB.