What Do We Want to See? - AST

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I mean this in the nicest way possible, you don't know how double shield healers work. If there is an event were they need to spam their GCD heals to deal with massive healing, they're healing wrong or the party is doing something wrong. SCH has Soil for mitigation + regen, Whispering Dawn, Fey Illumination which increases healing by 10% and reduces magical damage by 5, Indom, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph for Consolation, Expedient for another ability to reduce damage by 10%, and Critlo to place a beefy shield on the party. SGE also has a good chunk of these tools plus Panhaima.

They aren't going to struggle for healing.

In a hypothetical where Neutral Sect doesn't exist (or even if it did) you aren't going to see Noct AST spam A. Helios. Currently that's a REGEN. If there is a need for spam healing that would be HELIOS which I addressed. Further, AST has Macrososmos to consolidate heal, Earthly Star, Collective Unconciousness for mit + regen, Lady of Crowns if they draw it, Horoscope, and Celestial Opposition. A Noct AST will still have all of those tools as Nocturnal Collective is pretty much the same in the end as Diurnal and Celestial Opposition stacks.

Nocturnal Sect is NOT an issue. Especially in high level play where I would be coordinating with my healer and even more so if the suggestion of making it stance dance actually gets implemented. I don't see why other healers would want it, other than SCH with Selene which, I'm all for.

Also A. Helios excluding the Regen which you will be overwriting every time you spam it is 250p. Helios' potency is 400. You will be spamming Helios and it would be better than to spam A. Helios.

If you don't want Nocturnal Sect to return because you don't like it that's fine, but please stop spreading misinformation it would be a hassle to cohealers. It was fine in Shb. It was fine in SB (if weak). It would have been fine in EW or DT and would be fine in 8.0

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i) Ari has done almost an entire tier with scholar/ sage, you don't even have sage unlocked according to your profile and your scholar is still level 80. Unless you have an alt set as your main you have obviously not done any savage or ultimate with a double shield healer so I'm not sure why you felt the need to say "you don't know how they work" . The super awesome cooldowns you list have assigned spots they're used, so for some weird reason you can't use pneuma or spreadlo on the go if people go full headless chicken mode while they're still on cooldown. White mage can use cure 3, astro has helio and sage/ scholar have a single use of their ability that turns the shields into direct heals after which point you just spam your shield. If we're talking about recovery mode because people failed mechanics and you can't burn one of your pre-assigned cooldowns to save the run, white/ astro are just superior at that.

ii) Again, you list off cooldowns but not only are they already assigned, unless you're only pfing fights, but literally the only thing that nocturnal astro would have that the current astro does not is a small shield on opposition which has a 60s cooldown and a regen on intersection. What's the point of getting sects back if that's the only difference? Just ask them to bake those into neutral sect and you'd have what you want more or less.

iii) Your stance dance suggestion conveniently gives the good(damage buff) cards to nocturnal and the ones that no one would want to use(random buffs) to diurnal so the only thing it would accomplish for astros healing with a shield healer, would be them having to swap to nocturnal every minute so they can get the cards they actually care about. Astro already has way more than enough free heals and damage reduction, so you cannot possibly tell me anyone would choose to get the free heal/ free dr, especially when you also get a lady card once a minute with the new cards.

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Originally Posted by Ari_Calithiel

I do not understand why you are coming at me so aggressively, but if that is how you wish to communicate, I shall do so in kind.

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Its nothing to do with being aggressive and all to do with explaining why adding in Nocturnal Sect isn't a problem like you say it is. Because its not a problem. You're insisting you major reason for not wanting it is issues with clearing when many people by now have already mentioned that SGE+SCH can clear savage just fine, so Nocturnal AST which would be a SGE (since its shields pale to Critlo) would be able to clear just fine with either one.

As far as AST being a preplanned healer, if you read my first post in full I don't mind it being one, but if I were given the choice, I'd ask for Nocturnal Sect to come back, Neutral Sect to be remove like the lore devouring trash it is, and for AST to be a stance dance healer between Regen/Shields because that to me sounds fun.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Its nothing to do with being aggressive and all to do with explaining why adding in Nocturnal Sect isn't a problem like you say it is. Because its not a problem. You're insisting you major reason for not wanting it is issues with clearing when many people by now have already mentioned that SGE+SCH can clear savage just fine, so Nocturnal AST which would be a SGE (since its shields pale to Critlo) would be able to clear just fine with either one.

As far as AST being a preplanned healer, if you read my first post in full I don't mind it being one, but if I were given the choice, I'd ask for Nocturnal Sect to come back, Neutral Sect to be remove like the lore devouring trash it is, and for AST to be a stance dance healer between Regen/Shields because that to me sounds fun.

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Your first sentence to me was to attack my understanding of the game due to me mixing up the potencies of 2 spells. You were being highly aggressive while I was trying to discuss with you why nocturnal should not come back in good faith. I never once diminished your understanding, your character, or your experience and yet this was okay and acceptable for you to do when you did not like my response to you.

SGE brings 30 sec mitigation and an additional 120 sec cd mitigation. You don't run SGE/SCH because of "yay shields," you run it for the mitigation spam. SGE has lower shielding capabilities with it in turn being able to provide more straight healing output. I know this because I ran SGE/SCH through P5S to P7S. But as I have mentioned, this requires a lot of pre-planning as this combo goes off the rails if things start to fall apart. Again, I know this from my experience of actually playing said combo. This would be true of any shield/shield combo.

I'm not going to argue about the lore or the fun of neutral because this is opinion based. I had fun stance dancing as AST in ShB. But I learned very quickly that it was a much weaker shield healer. Every bean counter in the game that did the math was able to see that and there is information going back warning ASTs to go diurnal unless they had to go noct with a WHM co-healer.

I have already spelled out multiple times why nocturnal then was not good and why its current iteration is an improvement that complements your co-healer rather than fights with them.

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Originally Posted by RhiaCeallach

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The fact I am arguing is that can SGE+SCH clear? If the answer is yes, than so can Noct AST+ either one. And yes, they can. That's the whole point: arguing that Noct shouldn't come back simply because it would be harder to heal with in high tier content is a poor one to me. That's all this back and forth is. No more, no less.

As far as the stance dancing goes its to give an extra incentive to go into Nocturnal instead of camping Diurnal as well as address the issue of utility vs damage cards being in the same pool that everyone gets hung up on. The offensive cards can be in Diurnal for all I care, I figured the offensive ones would be better in Nocturnal to reward the ASTs who are proactive with their healing and the defensive ones in Diurnal to aid if they need to triage.

It doesn't matter to me either way.

I already addressed in another post that I'd like more actions added to Nocturnal to make the stance dancing worth it. Its not JUST to get back just CI and CO (CU also changed under it btw as redundant as it was). Its to add more interkit play and give AST another option to distance itself from WHM/SCH.

I asked for this back in Shb and with the supposed class overhaul of 8.0 I'm asking again what I'd like to see - which is Nocturnal come back with stance dancing in combat because the idea of a stance dancing healer appeals to me.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

As far as AST being a preplanned healer, if you read my first post in full I don't mind it being one, but if I were given the choice, I'd ask for Nocturnal Sect to come back, Neutral Sect to be remove like the lore devouring trash it is, and for AST to be a stance dance healer between Regen/Shields because that to me sounds fun.

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Every healer, bar white mage, is a pre-planned healer, having nocturnal back wouldn't change you being one. As for your stance dance, it would either heavily favour one stance over the other like in the example you gave or they'd have to come up with something unique to incentivize people to do it properly. Considering that they keep pissing off people with the way the class changes every expansion, I feel like it would be for the best if for right now they focused on the actual problem, which is the dumbing down of the card system for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by RhiaCeallach

Every healer, bar white mage, is a pre-planned healer, having nocturnal back wouldn't change you being one. As for your stance dance, it would either heavily favour one stance over the other like in the example you gave or they'd have to come up with something unique to incentivize people to do it properly. Considering that they keep pissing off people with the way the class changes every expansion, I feel like it would be for the best if for right now they focused on the actual problem, which is the dumbing down of the card system for no good reason.

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The preplanned healer I believe Ari and I are talking about are delayed heals. Which is a theme AST has gained in abundance since Shb's iteration. Its not one I'm against, I actually advocated for it, but again, if I given the choice (and effort we know won't be put in it but lets assume it was) I'd like AST to stance dance. It fits it well enough, ties into the cards decently. The threads are there may as well weave the quilt so to speak.

As far as cards go

Preposed changes:

• The Ewer goes back to HW/SB era and becomes a refresh for MP on the target. Niche of a use as it is, MP Refresh has more uses than a bloody regen that we have already on the GCD. I can give it to DRK, PLD or BLM who still use mana, a CO-Healer who can't manage their own mana, my co-healer/caster who was recently raised, or myself the AST due to how gimped for mana we're like to be.
  
• The Spire as Ewer's counterpart can either make all spells that cost mana free for the duration (akin to Free Cure) or give a Lightspeed/Swiftcast effect by making all spells' casting duration shortened or instant (recast timer remains the same).
  
• I want to keep The Bole's theme of protection, but again mitigation is a waste. Instead I'd like to see it be a damage reflection card, where in all damage taken by the player under the card effect is given back to the enemy for the duration (perhaps up to 50%).
  
• The Arrow is the one card I can't think of a suitable effect for. Perhaps make it a compile to where at the end of the duration all damage taken by the target is thrown back at the attacker up to 50% of the damage.

Not ideal honestly, but I feel they have more uses than what we're getting. I'd LIKE for 4 of the 6 to be damage oriented in nature with the remaining two to be supportive. Doesn't work out well, if we cut the draws into two, but if we're going back to 1 card out of 6... better I suppose.

Anyways I'd want to see these four change from heals/mitigation to something else, and the recast timer reduced.

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Originally Posted by Ari_Calithiel

Your first sentence to me was to attack my understanding of the game due to me mixing up the potencies of 2 spells. You were being highly aggressive while I was trying to discuss with you why nocturnal should not come back in good faith. I never once diminished your understanding, your character, or your experience and yet this was okay and acceptable for you to do when you did not like my response to you.

SGE brings 30 sec mitigation and an additional 120 sec cd mitigation. You don't run SGE/SCH because of "yay shields," you run it for the mitigation spam. SGE has lower shielding capabilities with it in turn being able to provide more straight healing output. I know this because I ran SGE/SCH through P5S to P7S. But as I have mentioned, this requires a lot of pre-planning as this combo goes off the rails if things start to fall apart. Again, I know this from my experience of actually playing said combo. This would be true of any shield/shield combo.

I'm not going to argue about the lore or the fun of neutral because this is opinion based. I had fun stance dancing as AST in ShB. But I learned very quickly that it was a much weaker shield healer. Every bean counter in the game that did the math was able to see that and there is information going back warning ASTs to go diurnal unless they had to go noct with a WHM co-healer.

I have already spelled out multiple times why nocturnal then was not good and why its current iteration is an improvement that complements your co-healer rather than fights with them.

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We're going to have to agree to disagree as far as Noct Sect goes. Not in that its weak, because it is, but that its return is a bad idea. I don't think it is with improvements (same as HW/SB era cards). I'll grant you, we probably won't see those improvements considering how the dev team handles things (see the coming cards), but if there is a chance for it to come back and work, I want to see it.

As far as the rest, I'm not going to lie and say to me you didn't come across as a person who didn't know what they're talking about. Because you very much did, and there have been many people in the past I've dealt with who have similar and I'm jaded, tired and extremely bitter. And for that I apologize. It wasn't my intention for it to come off as an attack, I just didn't know how else to word it in a way that could be understood. I still stand by my statements that it would be no different than SCH+SGE. Noct AST wouldn't be using their shields outside of CO (assuming of course no stance changing under combat) and Neutral Sect (assuming its not removed) because they wouldn't want to overwrite SCH's in the event they crit.

I genuinely don't believe its that big of an issue to remove the idea of Nocturnal returning or AST as a stance dancer idea.

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Originally Posted by Ari_Calithiel

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CU has remained that way since ShB; having the benefit of two sects regardless minus the gigantic buff on its mit radius we got in 6.3 (lol). One just had to remember which one stays for 15s and which one snaps at first 5s in addition to what sect they're on at the moment.

I also do not agree with how its 'ability to preplan heals' being an identity befitting to an AST when any healer - regardless of their choice - once they steps into EX/Savage+ environment, that's what they will have to do to a varied degree, no exception. WHM and/or SGE may have an edge in an uncoordinated lobbies, but they're not exempt to that rule. Unless you mean delayed heals like Horoscope, Micro, and Star?

Regarding WHM asking for shields, perhaps I've been mistaken if that's the case! Now that you mention it, there had been some asking for shields specifically (i.e. shielding lilies) but I remember there were more asking for 'more utilities' which like I said, can amount to more than just shields in this forum back then.

I never got into P8S p2 so I cannot comment on that. But I do remember P10S fondly and I could assure you myself & my co-SGE wasn't some godly coordinated double barrier partners, and we got into those instances when we needed to GCD heal spam the Harrowing Hell when some pulls mit plans gone south back in 6.4. We did exactly that: myself under Dissipation spamming Succors while they're Prognosis spamming once we've exhausted our other venues - it wasn't optimal, but we got through that without tank LB. Now replace my co-SGE with a hypothetical Noct AST who would also spam Helios after they've exhausted their venues. Why wouldn't that be viable? As for panic heals? Well that's where party wipe comes into play. I personally don't think a job should have its flavor deleted just because X player cannot manage to calm their nerves down in a content where such resilience is more or less required to a certain degree. By that logic, they should delete E.Prognosis too because that interferes with SCH's Recit-Spreadlo when what SE could've done was to at least force the stronger shield to remain intact until it has whittled enough to be overwritten. Who knows, that could've been more intuitive to common eyes when they see big "NO EFFECT" on their pretty spells instead of happily seeing their pretty shield icon appearing next to their party member's buff bar not paying attention they just overwrote their stronger co-healer's GCD shields.

All that aside, you might have noticed from reading my first post in this thread that I do liked the idea of bringing back the noct sect. Of course, adding just that would be a mere band aid. Ideally I prefer to have some stance dancing, or anything more than just their return to those who want to capitalize that. That's too much of a potential to pass in my eyes & I will not change my mind until SE surprises me, in a good way hopefully.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

CU has remained that way since ShB; having the benefit of two sects regardless. One just had to remember which one stays for 15s and which one snaps at first 5s in addition to what sect they're on at the moment.

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I took my friend's explanation of old CU without looking it up myself, and that is my fault. Regardless, the current iteration is both less confusing and incorporates both aspects anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I also do not agree with how its 'ability to preplan heals' being an identity befitting to an AST when any healer - regardless of their choice - once they steps into EX/Savage+ environment, that's what they will have to do to a varied degree, no exception. WHM and/or SGE may have an edge in an uncoordinated lobbies, but they're not exempt to that rule. Unless you mean delayed heals like Horoscope, Micro, and Star?

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Ya, I meant more of the delayed healing. Probably could have worded it better, but my initial posts from yesterday were when I was stupid sleep deprived and brain English bad with no sleep.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Regarding WHM asking for shields, perhaps I've been mistaken if that's the case! Now that you mention it, there had been some asking for shields specifically (i.e. shielding lilies) but I remember there were more asking for 'more utilities' which like I said, can amount to more than just shields in this forum back then.

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I honestly think it is really cool that every healer gets a taste of the other side. Not enough to homogenize, but enough that you can do some neat things together.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I never got into P8S p2 so I cannot comment on that.

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It was hell, do not recommend.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

But I do remember P10S fondly and I could assure you myself & my co-SGE wasn't some godly coordinated double barrier partners, and we got into those instances when we needed to GCD heal spam the Harrowing Hell when some pulls mit plans gone south back in 6.4. We did exactly that: myself under Dissipation spamming Succors while they're Prognosis spamming once we've exhausted our other venues - it wasn't optimal, but we got through that without tank LB. Now replace my co-SGE with a hypothetical Noct AST who would also spam Helios after they've exhausted their venues. Why wouldn't that be viable? As for panic heals? Well that's where party wipe comes into play. I personally don't think a job should have its flavor deleted just because X player cannot manage to calm their nerves down in a content where such resilience is more or less required to a certain degree. By that logic, they should delete E.Prognosis too because that interferes with SCH's Recit-Spreadlo when what SE could've done was to at least force the stronger shield to remain intact until it has whittled enough to be overwritten. Who knows, that could've been more intuitive to common eyes when they see big "NO EFFECT" on their pretty spells instead of happily seeing their pretty shield icon appearing next to their party member's buff bar not paying attention they just overwrote their stronger co-healer's GCD shields.

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And that is totally valid. My beef with nocturnal AST is that is a much weaker version than either SGE or SCH. It brings nothing to the table in terms of shield healing. The only 2 buttons that were of any interest in nocturnal were the 2 ogcds that we discussed. And this could be an easy fix by adding their changes to the current nocturnal. You would essentially only be losing 1 charge of the aoe ogcd shield with current noct and do we really need another ST heal? Our current kit is already so broken that astros are clearing ultimates and other content as a solo raid healer.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

All that aside, you might have noticed from reading my first post in this thread that I do liked the idea of bringing back the noct sect. Of course, adding just that would be a mere band aid. Ideally I prefer to have some stance dancing, or anything more than just their return to those who want to capitalize that. That's too much of a potential to pass in my eyes & I will not change my mind until SE surprises me, in a good way hopefully.

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I agree, stance dancing sounds fun. It sounds challenging and exciting and makes me wish for something like it. I just don't think nocturnal is it for reasons I already mentioned. I heard that cleric stance used to be a thing and that sounds intriguing to me if it could be adjusted to fit current raiding styles.

But for now, I'm desperately praying for them to reverse the card changes. As it stands, that is the most glaring issue for AST. Those changes gut the very essence of AST and make it a more braindead healer than what it should be. I love the challenge AST brings and I personally want it to remain a high skill cap job.

what if the delayed effects were incorporate into the cards buff itself.
you deal cards with various effects, then there's a skill that detonate all cards dealt and some bonus effect depends on what card was dealt before hand.

there are so many ways to make cards interesting and yet we are dealt none.