If you're unhappy with this game then unsub... forever.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I am telling you that a cash shop is inevitable. That is how games structure these days. Engage or don't as you choose. Everyone has their line. Apparently enough people have no problem with it for many games to make one.

My line has to be when it becomes necessary to engage with the cash shop to have any prayer of success with the game. Fluff items? who cares.

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You think it's going to remain merely fluff items? Just like when microtransactions were introduced, devs will test the waters gradually to see what they can get away with. They WILL introduce pay-to-win elements. Players will complain all while shelling out the money anyways, and years from now we will be in a pay-to-win landscape instead of the cash shop merely being fluff items. That's where this leads.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

You think it's going to remain merely fluff items? Just like when microtransactions were introduced, devs will test the waters gradually to see what they can get away with. They WILL introduce pay-to-win elements. Players will complain all while shelling out the money anyways, and years from now we will be in a pay-to-win landscape instead of the cash shop merely being fluff items. That's where this leads.

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For me at that point my line would be crossed and I would quietly and simply unsub. No fanfare. No grandiose fix this or I am going to leave. No Big I am leaving thread. Until such a time as that happens I plan to enjoy the game and buy the occasional fluff that takes my fancy.

So your real complaint is about the cash shop and not everything else in your post? You seem to have focused in on cash shop. I will say again, why stick around? You know as well as I do the cash shop is going nowhere. You are quick to tell others to unsub but are quite unwilling to do it yourself at this point.

I walked away from EA entirely after the EALAND debacle. I won't deal with anything they put out. Where is your line? Some nebulous next expansion thing that might or might not come to pass. Some belief that the cash shop WILL go pay to win that you have no proof of at this moment?

You have no consistent argument. Telling people to walk away forever now when you have not hit the walk away forever point yourself yet is rather disingenuous.

No, there's one thing that speaks louder than any individual wallet, and that's multiple wallets.

What you should be doing is to use your voice to dissaude those multiple wallets. Let the world know this game is atrocious. Spread the message. We need this game's reputation to nosedive off a cliff.

Make sure to pressure content creators and reviewers and let them know how you feel.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

For me at that point my line would be crossed and I would quietly and simply unsub. No fanfare. No grandiose fix this or I am going to leave. No Big I am leaving thread. Until such a time as that happens I plan to enjoy the game and buy the occasional fluff that takes my fancy.

So your real complaint is about the cash shop and not everything else in your post? You seem to have focused in on cash shop. I will say again, why stick around? You know as well as I do the cash shop is going nowhere. You are quick to tell others to unsub but are quite unwilling to do it yourself at this point.

I walked away from EA entirely after the EALAND debacle. I won't deal with anything they put out. Where is your line? Some nebulous next expansion thing that might or might not come to pass. Some belief that the cash shop WILL go pay to win that you have no proof of at this moment?

You have no consistent argument. Telling people to walk away forever now when you have not hit the walk away forever point yourself yet is rather disingenuous.

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You know what? You're right.

https://i.imgur.com/1T5cUly.png

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

No, there's one thing that speaks louder than any individual wallet, and that's multiple wallets.

What you should be doing is to use your voice to dissaude those multiple wallets. Let the world know this game is atrocious. Spread the message. We need this game's reputation to nosedive off a cliff.

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I mostly agree with you. I wish tarnishing a game's/company's reputation was enough to stop these practices. However, when I look at a certain other game developer, their reputation has fallen into the gutter and people constantly complain about them. Yet they still rake in the cash with every title they release. People complain with every released title and then are surprised when that company proceeds to do more of the same practices that earned them the horrible reputation in the first place. SE losing multiple wallets would indeed hurt them but for some reason a game/company having a horrible reputation does not seem to be enough to get people to stop giving them cash if they are an already well established brand.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

So your real complaint is about the cash shop and not everything else in your post? You seem to have focused in on cash shop

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And no, I don't mean just the cash shop but also the devs refusing to listen to the players and continually dumbing down content in quality and quantity.

'In from the Cold' was only nerfed in the sense that if you choose the "Very Easy" difficulty, it is easier than it used to be. But if you choose the hardest option it is still as hard as before.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

There seems to be a trend in AAA gaming nowadays. Maximize profits while putting in minimum effort.

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If you really believe that localizing the MSQ and all the text in the game to different languages, drawing concept art, creating models and weather effects that involve traveling to places in the world and taking photos for textures, developing highly-detailed environments such as Xelphatol, The Ghimlyt Dark or Holminster Switch, all of which they talk in detail about developing at Fan Fest panels by the way, is "minimum effort" in the way you are implying, then you're just mistaken.

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Our voices now go unheard and if you think I'm wrong after everything we've seen, you're fooling yourself.

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I think they just don't listen to the forums anymore. It seems like they still watch youtube and listen to that because they have been adding things based on it coming up as an issue in youtube videos so it seems it falls to content creators to articulate the things on these forums and present it in an articulate way to the developers.

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I have been around since beta and have seen this gradual, downward descent. What we have now is a game unrecognizable from that which allowed it to flourish in the first place.

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You say that, but statistically there are more players than in this "past" you are referring to. Statistically it is flourishing compared to the days you refer to. Now I know what you mean, because I was around since ARR, and it's fair to say "classes have been made simpler to play", but statistically there is not a downward descent.

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The neverending routine

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I am happy with consistency. Then I know what I am getting. Consistency isn't necessarily the problem as long as each thing is fun.

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I've seen tanks solo a boss when the healer and both dps die.

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I like this, to be honest. Especially if it's hard to pull off. A lot of casual tanks actually can't even do it and I just seem them die because they don't know what Bloodwhetting is and stand in all the vulns. I just don't like it when something is flat out impossible, but I would be alright with it being harder to achieve.

I feel that it was harder to achieve in the past but now tank self-heals are so good that it's difficult to fail. For example, I've solo'd Gubal Library HM a few times and I'm not saying it was really hard, but I had to make sure I used my heal combo instead of the damage buff when I needed it. In a level 90 dungeon I wouldn't even need to think about this because of Bloodwhetting.

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In addition to this, we are thrown bread crumbs for content. Nowadays, you can finish the MSQ and raid series in 5-6 hours WITH watching the cutscenes. And we wait 4.5 months between patches for that?

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Remember that most people play a game's new DLC/patch for a few days and then move onto the next game that released or got DLC. Most people only play for a few days anyway and this is who SE is catering to.

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The homogenization and dumbing down of classes.

I can't decide of the devs did this because players thought this was too hard, or if this was their way of 'balancing' the classes without them having to put in the effort to balance while keeping them unique.

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Both. They want to make them more intuitive so that we don't have players who "never" figure out their rotation, but with 20 classes they also want to make them easier to balance by making 2 of each play almost exactly the same ie. SGE and SCH, MNK and SAM, GNB and PLD, WAR and DRK, probably DRG and RPR.

I kinda accept their argument, I suppose, because at a certain point balancing 22 classes would be easier if 2 of each played the same. Trying to balance so many of them would create more overhead than what they had in ARR and Heavensward.

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It doesn't even let you play the hard mode until you've beaten the game.

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I agree that FF16 should have let people choose the difficulty at the start.

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No game with a monthly subscription should also charge you money for items.

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While I agree, there are games doing much worse than just the mog station items and at least Yoshi-P said he didn't want to wave the mog station in people's faces, so you can only see the items at an Inn.

They did confess that if they made the game now they would probably do what everyone else is doing (free-to-play with microtransactions), but they won't do that with FFXIV because they know players would not be understanding of it and it would not be a smart decision. But Yoshi-P has also previously claimed that the subscription fee allows them to make more regular and higher-quality content than other games.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

'In from the Cold' was only nerfed in the sense that if you choose the "Very Easy" difficulty, it is easier than it used to be. But if you choose the hardest option it is still as hard as before.

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Which is a nerf in and of itself. I'm saying that "Very Easy" difficulty should never have come to pass. The game was already easy enough.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If you really believe that localizing the MSQ and all the text in the game to different languages, drawing concept art, creating models and weather effects that involve traveling to places in the world and taking photos for textures, developing highly-detailed environments such as Xelphatol, The Ghimlyt Dark or Holminster Switch, all of which they talk in detail about developing at Fan Fest panels by the way, is "minimum effort" in the way you are implying, then you're just mistaken.

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Two out of three dungeons that you've cited are from Stormblood or Heavensward. Old dungeons back from when they still cared.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think they just don't listen to the forums anymore. It seems like they still watch youtube and listen to that because they have been adding things based on it coming up as an issue in youtube videos so it seems it falls to content creators to articulate the things on these forums and present it in an articulate way to the developers.

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So we have to bring our complaints to youtubers instead of talking to the developers themselves like we used to do? That would indicate that they no longer consider direct communication with the player valid. We now have to use youtubers as a medium. Also, youtubers are humans and therefore biased. There is no guarantee that their opinions will represent the player's.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You say that, but statistically there are more players than in this "past" you are referring to. Statistically it is flourishing compared to the days you refer to. Now I know what you mean, because I was around since ARR, and it's fair to say "classes have been made simpler to play", but statistically there is not a downward descent.

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Purely riding on the back of their MSQ and those who want to play this game for social/ERP reasons. Many people leave when they finish the MSQ. They started cutting content outside of the MSQ come Shadowbringers. I don't mind the MSQ being good, but they've been increasingly trying to turn this game into a single player game when their loyal customers paid to play an MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I am happy with consistency. Then I know what I am getting. Consistency isn't necessarily the problem as long as each thing is fun.

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There comes a point when even things that were once fun lose their luster. Yoshi-P and team has kept to their same formula for 10 years now. One can only do the same things so many times. It became tiring in Shadowbringers. Now it's just frustrating that they refuse to change.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I like this, to be honest. Especially if it's hard to pull off. A lot of casual tanks actually can't even do it and I just seem them die because they don't know what Bloodwhetting is and stand in all the vulns. I just don't like it when something is flat out impossible, but I would be alright with it being harder to achieve.

I feel that it was harder to achieve in the past but now tank self-heals are so good that it's difficult to fail. For example, I've solo'd Gubal Library HM a few times and I'm not saying it was really hard, but I had to make sure I used my heal combo instead of the damage buff when I needed it. In a level 90 dungeon I wouldn't even need to think about this because of Bloodwhetting.

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What is the purpose of having a healer at all if a tank can just solo a boss in an Expert roulette? If Ultimates can be cleared without healers?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Remember that most people play a game's new DLC/patch for a few days and then move onto the next game that released or got DLC. Most people only play for a few days anyway and this is who SE is catering to.

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Those are single-player games. We pay a subscription and expect at the very least, the same amount of content that was once delivered. They have cut the amount of dungeons and MSQ is done quicker on patches. They've dumbed down the difficulty of alliance raids after what happened with Orbonne Monastery.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Both. They want to make them more intuitive so that we don't have players who "never" figure out their rotation, but with 20 classes they also want to make them easier to balance by making 2 of each play almost exactly the same ie. SGE and SCH, MNK and SAM, GNB and PLD, WAR and DRK, probably DRG and RPR.


I kinda accept their argument, I suppose, because at a certain point balancing 22 classes would be easier if 2 of each played the same. Trying to balance so many of them would create more overhead than what they had in ARR and Heavensward.

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Rotations should take effort to figure out. We used to have easy classes but also some which had complexity to them. It seems that is being gutted to implement simplicity across the board.

Before I start responding to some of your individual points, let me say that I agree with your thread title.

If someone is unhappy with the game, they need to unsub for their own sake. Games are for our entertainment and relaxation. If a game isn't fun, it's not serving its purpose. Wasting money on it is counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I remember CBU3 actually creating polls on the forums, if you can believe that, asking players what it was they wanted to change in FFXIV as it currently was. '

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CBU3 didn't exist until 2019.

The polls did exist but CBU3 had nothing to do with them. They were there to help the game's "re-developers" pinpoint the most urgent changes needed.

Once the game was released and became successful, there was no need for the polls anymore. This is no different from the majority of other successful games. They aren't using a player democracy to influence their game design.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

(comments on content difficulty and subsequent nerfs)

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If the majority of players feel left out of content because it's too difficult, they quit the game. That doesn't serve anyone.

Citation? See Wildstar. Oh wait, you can't anymore. Game is dead due to a lack of casual content, especially at end game.

FFXIV does still have difficult content but do not expect to find it in the MSQ or content related to the MSQ, which is intended for players of all skill. There's nothing wrong with that. All those players who enjoy relaxing in easy mode are still contributing financially to the development of more difficult content for those who want a greater challenge.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

(comments on formulaic content design)

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Most long-running games that add new content on a regular basis have their fomulas. They've developed based on player response. Players will stick to what they like. Change the formula and you start losing players.

Citation? See World of Warcraft post Wrath. The more they took away for the sake of change, the more players they lost. It's only now that they're starting to bring back some of what was discarded that player interest is starting to creep back up.

Formulas that worked with players are safe. Change is risk unless the game was already failing (see FFXIV 1.0).

If you need something different as a player, try a new game. It's better than watching one you enjoy get destroyed by change for the sake of change.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

(job design complaints)

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Job design will always be a challenge for MMORPG developers trying to find the right proportion of job balance to job uniqueness.

Some players want uniqueness. Some want balance. Some want both. I remember the same issues in WoW. I've heard GW2 players making similar complaints because certain builds are considered mandatory for raiding.

This is not the only game that has suffered from it.

But I will agree that it suffers more in this game because the developers have a lopsided view of the Holy Trinity. Until they address that weakness, job design will remain a problem.

RE: Kaiten - most job changes don't happen because players ask for them. They happen because developers are trying to introduce new elements without increasing button bloat.

Kaiten might have been removed but skill potencies had been increased to compensate. They could have added Kaiten back but they would have reverted all those potency increases to compensate for its return. SAM players would no doubt have seen that as being punished for demanding Kaiten back.

I bet the Kaiten fuss wouldn't have happened if Kaiten hadn't been removed at the same time as the stat squish occurred so players could have clearly seen the impact of the potency increases.

It will be interesting to see how SAM is designed for Dawntrail. I suspect Kaiten will be back along with some additional button bloat since the impression left is that SAM players like a lot of unnecessary buttons to press.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

FFXVI and YoshiP complaints

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Do people understand the difference between the role of a producer and the role of a director in game development (or in any entertainment media for that matter)?

A producer makes certain a project has the resources it needs to be completed.

A game director oversees the actual creation of a game and guides its design decisions.

FFXVI was completed. If you have issues with FFXVI game design then direct your comments to that game's director. YoshiP was not the director of that game.

As for listening to the player base, listening to players and making changes in response to players would be 2 different things. We know they are listening. They have made some changes to the game and acknowledged those changes as being due to player feedback.

That they don't make other changes requested in player feedback doesn't mean they aren't listening. It may be those changes need time for development before they can be implemented in game. It may be those changes require technology that doesn't exist or is beyond what the clients owned by the average player can currently handle. It may be they don't agree that those changes are right for the game.

You can't always get what you want.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

(cash shop complaints)

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Welcome to capitalism - give the customer what they're willing to pay for. Those with the excess disposable income aren't likely to stop buying the extras they want to have because the prices are trivial compared to what they have available to spend.

It's a weird hill for people to choose to die on considering that the cash shop revenue reduces the need to increase prices elsewhere not to mention that we get far more items added as in-game rewards than are added to the cash shop each expansion. Outside of some specific situations, I'm using ingame rewards instead of items from the cash shop. The quality is still there in most cases. All they lack is the separate price tag.

If you don't want to pay more, then don't pay more. Nothing on the cash shop is mandatory for game play.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

(comments that business exist to make money and have no reason to change as long as they continue to make money, consumers need to be smarter)

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You've got the conclusion more or less nailed except for one thing. Business do listen.

They're looking for trends in customer opinions. Sometimes consumer feedback gives them ideas that will increase profits.

What you're asking for may not be seen as being in the best interest of profits. They need to decide if implementing your ideas will cause them to lose more customers than they gain. It's easy to assume that all other players want the same things that you do but that's rarely the case.

That is why you need spend your money where you think you're getting value in return. If your interests do not align or stop aligning with the product, it's time to move on to a product that does align with them.

Businesses pay attention to where consumer money is going and that tends to influence their decisions more than anything else.

What message are you sending with the way you spend your money?

I'm glad that you've taken action that aligns with your best interests.

But yours aren't mine. I'm still having fun with FFXIV and will continue to pay for the game until that stops being true.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Nah. If you're unhappy and you know it, clap your buttcheeks...

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What a marvelous description of Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Yes, you are correct. I have a very small glimmer of hope combined with the fact that gaming landscape is mostly desolate of good options that don't have psychological warfare on the players, aka nickel and diming. I will 100% stay true in my word though and unsub permanently should Dawntrail continue the trend. I'm also not the one making complaint threads every single day though and talking about how unhappy I am with this game every single day.

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You probably won't even remember this post 11 months from unless you go out of your way to bookmark it with a comment "Must reply when Dawntrail is released".

Better to quit playing now then come back to Dawntrail with a somewhat fresh perspective. Nothing is going to improve between now and Dawntrail's release.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

You think it's going to remain merely fluff items? Just like when microtransactions were introduced, devs will test the waters gradually to see what they can get away with. They WILL introduce pay-to-win elements. Players will complain all while shelling out the money anyways, and years from now we will be in a pay-to-win landscape instead of the cash shop merely being fluff items. That's where this leads.

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That's a bridge I will cross if it ever happens.

I don't think it will happen unless this stops being a subscription based game. As long as it's subscription based, it remains in their best interests to leave the cash shop items all vanity. As soon as P2W shows up, they lose all that subscription income and are left reliant on the whims of the whales.

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Originally Posted by TheNight

No, there's one thing that speaks louder than any individual wallet, and that's multiple wallets.

What you should be doing is to use your voice to dissaude those multiple wallets. Let the world know this game is atrocious. Spread the message. We need this game's reputation to nosedive off a cliff.

Make sure to pressure content creators and reviewers and let them know how you feel.

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Negative publicity is still publicity. All you'd accomplish is getting more people to buy the game to see just how bad it is. Some will find out it's not what they expected and that they actually enjoy it, and then SE will get all that extra revenue.

If you want a game to die, what you want to do is get people to stop talking about it at all.

"weren't you playing that game? I've been thinking about it" "meh, lost interest. Playing this other game now" "oh, maybe I'll try that game instead"

The game flourished because WoW had a crisis and HEAVENSWARD and STORMBLOOD gave players enough of a good impression to share the success of this game.

It did NOT flourish because jobs were dumbed down in ShB/EW. Because literally how would a new player know about jobs being dumbed down?

^my favourite pastime is watching ShB and EW babies recommend improvements to the game that are literally just old SB systems they ripped out in favour of increasing how casual the game is

Bonus points if that person also argues the game is designed to be casual friendly