EW Relic Grind is just a streamlined version of ARR/HW Grind

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Wow I can do the same roulettes I’ve been doing since the roulettes were introduced

What if I want to earn my relic doing eureka, what about POTD, ocean fishing, PVP, gathering, crafting, beast tribes, variant dungeons, Bozja

Saying “here your choice is one of the roulettes” isn’t a choice at all

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Except variant dungeons literally give Causality, meaning they directly contribute to relic progress.. It's actually what makes me laugh the most at the people saying they wanted to spam Variants for their relic - you can literally do that in the current setup. Go spend all your tomes so you start at 0, then build up 1500 off of V&C alone. bam, you get your relic grind off the content you were hoping to grind. Same with Orthos, you could spam that all day until you build up 1500. You can still make a relic grind if you so choose to do so in the current way its setup - you just have to have absolute basic self control to do it now that Square's authoritative 'you must do it this way' voice is gone.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Except variant dungeons literally give Causality, meaning they directly contribute to relic progress.. It's actually what makes me laugh the most at the people saying they wanted to spam Variants for their relic - you can literally do that in the current setup. Go spend all your tomes so you start at 0, then build up 1500 off of V&C alone. bam, you get your relic grind off the content you were hoping to grind. Same with Orthos, you could spam that all day until you build up 1500. You can still make a relic grind if you so choose to do so in the current way its setup - you just have to have absolute basic self control to do it now that Square's authoritative 'you must do it this way' voice is gone.

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So you point you one example out of 9 and that example is also probably the least efficient ways to gain causality tomestones and has no actual connection to being required for the relic, yeah real convincing argument you have there

A relic whos step asked you to go do all 12 paths of mount rokkon sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than “get tomes however you want” because the latter doesn’t encourage people to interact with variant and fill the queues, like you know what the relics are supposed to do, the idiots ilvl cheesing crystal tower or ifrit hard don’t need any more fodder

I am going to be really blunt about this. No relic has ever been fun or good. I know I will get hate for this, but I personally don't really care the difference between spamming Expert Roulette vs some random old dungeon 50 times. Both are equally boring to play and that's my problem. It doesn't matter what they put there as the grind as I was never going to enjoy it from the very start. I don't think the problem is that relic uses tomestones. But that it's the exact same step every time. The first step of the Bozja relic was exactly the same as this stage and I remember people complaining about that too. Tomes is boring though. ARR and HW both had stages that were entirely tome driven but the amount you needed was ten times more than EW's relic. I remember grinding Brayflox Hardmode 300 times for a single weapon just to get enough tomes to get all of my books. I remember grinding Aetherochemical Research Facility again for the HW relic. This was after doing your Expert Roulette. Also, the Expert Roulette also gave a Mysterious Treasure Map once a day back in ARR for Alexandrite. So, like, the Expert Roulette grind we have now is nothing new, but rather the payment requirement is so small that it doesn't feel like a comparable grind to those previous tome grinds. Basically, I don't think it's the tomes people have an issue with cause SE has relied on tomes many times in the past, it's just they want something to burn time. Like instead of getting the rock immediately, they want some of that old stuff back like the Alexandrite Treasure map or something a little more interesting than buy 3 rocks. I think people who focus to much on "Most efficient way." to completing the relic are kind of missing the point. The most efficient way in the past was Brayflox spam or Research Facility. We had multiple ways to farm tombs to but that is what we did back then. That's what we're doing now. The most efficient way to farm is the highest-level dungeon or hunts. It has always been that way and will continue to be. The difference is we don't have to burn ourselves out on running 100 Aetherfronts because it gives the most tomes. The number of tombs you need is so low, you can actually do other things without a second thought. Now is this a good thing? Honestly... I don't know. I won't even comment on it. My whole point is that this grind is actually quite identical to the ones of the past. It's just fewer in numbers so it's significantly a lot less engaging and absolutely no brain power is involved to think about it.

But yeah, no matter what they did, relic was going to be boring. The only real shocker is that there isn't really a grind this time and maybe that's the problem?

While I appreciate the versatility of the Causality only relic, I suspect this was implemented because it was lighter on the development side and also served an economic purpose.

Causality is used to purchase the rare crafting items needed for the higher ending raiding gear.

So if you want to make money instead of getting your relic, just spend your causality on the Alche-mist instead of the latest Manderville creations.

If you want a shiny glowy weapon, spend your causality on that instead.

It forces the omni-jobbers to pick and choose in a way that didn't matter before, when the drops or light came in addition to the tomes you earn from any given duty or roulette.

They clearly put developer FTEs into Variant/Criterion Dungeons for Endwalker where that effort in Shb went into Bozja and in SB Eureka. IMO they should have made the relic steps require items from Variant/Criterion, at least ~10-15 or so just to get people to do them more. Maybe it costs 20 meteorites to upgrade relic @500 causality each, OR run Variant Dungeon and get 3-5 per run or something.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Except variant dungeons literally give Causality, meaning they directly contribute to relic progress.. It's actually what makes me laugh the most at the people saying they wanted to spam Variants for their relic - you can literally do that in the current setup. Go spend all your tomes so you start at 0, then build up 1500 off of V&C alone. bam, you get your relic grind off the content you were hoping to grind. Same with Orthos, you could spam that all day until you build up 1500. You can still make a relic grind if you so choose to do so in the current way its setup - you just have to have absolute basic self control to do it now that Square's authoritative 'you must do it this way' voice is gone.

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You get like 40 of them for 15-20 minute run of variant. You can get 240 (+40 for each instance, if maps are split atm) in 10 minute run of A rank Hunt train. Sure, there's waiting time, but you can do whatever you want while you wait, and it's still so much less effort and time than anything else. It's even more efficient than doing daily roulettes. Imagine you need to go somewhere and there are 3 roads: 1 takes 10 minutes, 2nd takes 30 minutes but you can only use it once a day, another takes 2 hours but it has nice scenery. I wonder, what will majority choose?

MMORPGs were built on this carrot and stick mechanism, long term rewards are staple of this genre, MMORPG players are loot goblins, I don't understand why do people try to deny this. Especially since you already have plenty of short term rewards, why can't we have at least relics as a last form of meaningful grind?

I will take 1500 tomes per step to never have anything like Delibrum ever again, where it's borderline impossible to get groups together to run dead content for the relic step. At the very least these steps will never age out and become impossible to omplete in future expansions.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

re-clearing all five (including door boss) Savage fights nets me a measly 120 uncapped tomes

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Just a little nitpicking...
Neither savage nor ultimate give uncapped tomes. They are only rewarding the weekly capped tomes.
Savage and ultimate from past expansions give poetics
Savage and ultimate from endwalker give comedy

Only the first time bonus nets you some uncapped tomes. So re-clearing if there is no first timer nets you 30 comedy per floor.
Which also means, no I can not even do what I enjoy and get the tomes to buy and upgrade relics.
Well, at least when the next expansion launches I have some use for poetics again...

I partially agree with the OP - doing all the roulettes (which is old content) is as good as doing an specific X old content Y times.

However, as soon as you exhaust the roulettes, you're back to farming EW expert or Hunt Trains. They could dillute the cost between Causality and Poetics, though, to ensure you could potentially spam old content for the requirements to purchase the items.

Honestly, to me, the only good relic grind was the Stormblood's one, because it had 4 whole zones dedicated to it and you could only do there, and although it was just as grindy, it was a more interesting grind.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So you point you one example out of 9 and that example is also probably the least efficient ways to gain causality tomestones and has no actual connection to being required for the relic, yeah real convincing argument you have there

A relic whos step asked you to go do all 12 paths of mount rokkon sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than “get tomes however you want” because the latter doesn’t encourage people to interact with variant and fill the queues, like you know what the relics are supposed to do, the idiots ilvl cheesing crystal tower or ifrit hard don’t need any more fodder

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Gotta love when someone's "retort" to that argument is already answered...by the original point itself lol. I'll re-quote for amusement's sake:

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You can still make a relic grind if you so choose to do so in the current way its setup - you just have to have absolute basic self control to do it now that Square's authoritative 'you must do it this way' voice is gone.

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There's nothing stopping you from making a chunk of the grind doing all 12 paths of the new Variant Dungeon. By the way, none of the relic quests have ever had anything more than a completely arbitrary "connection" to a relic. In Bozja, I'm up to the step where you need 15 "Raw Emotions", which can be sensibly obtained from DR...or any random Level 70 Dungeon or HOH, neither of which have anything whatsoever to do with the relic and could have just as easily been replaced with literally any other content.

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So you point you one example out of 9 and that example is also probably the least efficient ways to gain causality tomestones

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This feels puerile and sad as an "argument." You seem to be completely ignoring the actual point, perhaps because it destroys your attempt at an "argument." It actually makes her point even stronger, as you're acknowledging there are a large number of ways you can effectively create your own relic grind steps. You just have those options now instead of being forced to do one or two very specific types of content over and over for each relic you want.