I didn't think I'd miss Kaiten that much...

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Originally Posted by Arohk

i edited it because i had a typo

Also, what else can i say about Kaiten, you always had to use it, so it was a pointless buff just taking up a hotkey.

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It's also pointless to fight a boss because when you loose you need to do it again. Would me more convenient to just remove bosses. One problem less to worry about. Only, that line of thinking is what removes the game part out of the game. QoL isn't the be all end all.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Other then one-liners and low-effort masturbaiting posts,

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I don't need more than one line to make my point, and if i go in detail , people don't read it anyway, happens every time.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I don't need more than one line to make my point, and if i go in detail , people don't read it anyway, happens every time.

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Well, we here have more than enough time, since we're waiting for Kaiten which will return in 6.4 *huffs copium*, so I wouldn't mind hearing arguments of the other side, since most of the anti-kaiteners just leave one liners without any explanations or details, while all pro-kaiteners just repeat the same things over and over again, since they were discussed and agreed upon time over time.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Well, we here have more than enough time, since we're waiting for Kaiten which will return in 6.4 *huffs copium*, so I wouldn't mind hearing arguments of the other side, since most of the anti-kaiteners just leave one liners without any explanations or details, while all pro-kaiteners just repeat the same things over and over again, since they were discussed and agreed upon time over time.

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Fine...
Having a buff ability that you "must" use every time before the actual skill is pointless, if Kaiten was a 1 min cooldown or something or had a situational effect like castin Iaijutsu while walking/instantly it had a point to exist.
You are wasting an off global cd casting a pointless buff to an ability every time you use it, no one ever used Iaijutsu without Kaiten, therefore Kaiten is a pointless Buff,.
You have to keep track of your Resources to always have 20> Kenki to be able to use Kaiten.

You're all high on copium because you liked the animation.

If Kaiten comes back, it needs the following changes:
1# Make it a 1min. CD, you next Iaijutsu is a 100% critical+direct hit, also remove the Kenki Cost.
or
2# Make it have a short cooldown ~30 seconds, remove the Kenki Cost & and make it "Your next Iaijutsu is cast instantly."

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Fine...
Having a buff ability that you "must" use every time before the actual skill is pointless, if Kaiten was a 1 min cooldown or something or had a situational effect like castin Iaijutsu while walking/instantly it had a point to exist.
You are wasting an off global cd casting a pointless buff to an ability every time you use it, no one ever used Iaijutsu without Kaiten, therefore Kaiten is a pointless Buff,.
You have to keep track of your Resources to always have 20> Kenki to be able to use Kaiten.

You're all high on copium because you liked the animation.

If Kaiten comes back, it needs the following changes:
1# Make it a 1min. CD, you next Iaijutsu is a 100% critical+direct hit, also remove the Kenki Cost.
or
2# Make it have a short cooldown ~30 seconds, remove the Kenki Cost & and make it "Your next Iaijutsu is cast instantly."

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Telling me you didn't play samurai without saying you didn't play samurai.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Telling me you didn't play samurai without saying you didn't play samurai.

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Oh?

Would you care to explain to the class when you should use Iaijutsu without Kaiten?

On that grounds surely continuation/hypervelocity should have been on the chopping block first, no? You fill your weave slots with them on a tank where weave slots are actually important, they literally cannot be pressed outside of the "correct" context so if you wanted to do some stupid optimisation by buffing another gcd you cann't, unlike with kaiten and you must use it after the actual skill for correct play.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Fine...
Having a buff ability that you "must" use every time before the actual skill is pointless, if Kaiten was a 1 min cooldown or something or had a situational effect like castin Iaijutsu while walking/instantly it had a point to exist.
You are wasting an off global cd casting a pointless buff to an ability every time you use it, no one ever used Iaijutsu without Kaiten, therefore Kaiten is a pointless Buff,.
You have to keep track of your Resources to always have 20> Kenki to be able to use Kaiten.

You're all high on copium because you liked the animation.

If Kaiten comes back, it needs the following changes:
1# Make it a 1min. CD, you next Iaijutsu is a 100% critical+direct hit, also remove the Kenki Cost.
or
2# Make it have a short cooldown ~30 seconds, remove the Kenki Cost & and make it "Your next Iaijutsu is cast instantly."

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Either Kaiten buffed iaijutsu or it was a pointless ability, pick one because there is no in between. It was a source of power, the center of the playstyle of the job that gave the kenki gauge actual management to pay attention to. There was nothing pointless about it. People liked the ability because of what it did, the animation was just an added bonus.

Your "solutions" actually makes it more "pointless" than it was before. Neither does it solve the issue of spamming shinten because there is no there any other gauge ability other than senei and guren, and those are in your 2-minute window.

We already have something that instant casts without kenki gauge, it's under Kaeshi, which unlocks after the initial cast.

Whether you like it or not, Kaiten having that Gauge cost IS important to the job on a fundamental level, and your APM with or without Kaiten is almost identical anyway.

Yes, Kaiten costed 20 gauge because it massively buffed your iaijutsu's potency, that was the entire point. Critical Direct Crits also fall under this ideal for better or worse, so if they brought it back they would probably still lock it behind 20 gauge anyway. Removing the cost does nothing but remove management, and for what? To piss off the entire samurai playerbase?

The fact that you needed Kaiten to buff your iaijutsu is exactly what makes it not pointless. Put undraw in the list of pointless if you want to talk about actual useless abilities.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Fine...
Having a buff ability that you "must" use every time before the actual skill is pointless, if Kaiten was a 1 min cooldown or something or had a situational effect like castin Iaijutsu while walking/instantly it had a point to exist.
You are wasting an off global cd casting a pointless buff to an ability every time you use it, no one ever used Iaijutsu without Kaiten, therefore Kaiten is a pointless Buff,.
You have to keep track of your Resources to always have 20> Kenki to be able to use Kaiten.

You're all high on copium because you liked the animation.

If Kaiten comes back, it needs the following changes:
1# Make it a 1min. CD, you next Iaijutsu is a 100% critical+direct hit, also remove the Kenki Cost.
or
2# Make it have a short cooldown ~30 seconds, remove the Kenki Cost & and make it "Your next Iaijutsu is cast instantly."

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This is argument that I can understand. Yes, nobody can deny that using X before every Y isn't the most breathtaking design. However, there is small, but still significant skill in actually using it.

1. You need to keep track of your Kenki, otherwise Iaijutsu will deal significantly less damage. So it's tiny error, with relatively big consequence, but it separates new and average SAMs. There is also improvisation of delaying Iaijutsu and building Kenki if you realized you don't have enough Kenki, which again, adds skill to it.
2. Because it has strict place in your rotation, you cannot just blinding double weave all you want. You need to have 1 weave empty before every Iaijutsu. Because of Third Eye, which is reactive, you cannot always just spam Shinten. So for better SAMs who do use Third Eye, it can add variability by delaying oGCDs with lower priority.
3. Most importantly, there is no second Kenki spender. Arguably, having gauge which is only for one ability is worse than Kaiten that is used before every Iaijutsu. I think that a lot of SAMs would be happy if we atleast removed Shinten spam. But what would be second way to spend Kenki? Shinten already does direct damage and anything that does less damage than Shinten will not ever be used. So realistically, if not Kaiten, I can only see something between Shinten and Senei - higher potency than Shinten but with let's say 20 seconds cooldown, so you pool Kenki, use Senei, then this new spell, then spend rest on Shinten. Doable I guess, but I think that simple Kaiten is way better solution than this.
4. The "feel" of ability is legitimate reason. It's supposed to be wind-up for big hit, and in this regard, I think that Kaiten's animation was perfect.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You are wasting an off global cd casting a pointless buff to an ability every time you use it, no one ever used Iaijutsu without Kaiten, therefore Kaiten is a pointless Buff,.

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You do the exact same thing with Shinten. They did not alter Kenki generation, the Kenki you would use on Kaiten you just use on Shinten. Shinten is 25, Kaiten was 20, so it's "better" by 20%, but not really, because you want to pool Kenki and use it all in burst phase, so there is same APM in burst, but slightly lower APM in filler, which is exact opposite what we need in current 2 min meta, where you need to snort crack in burst window, but you're good to take a nap at fillers.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You have to keep track of your Resources to always have 20> Kenki to be able to use Kaiten.

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Yes, that's the idea. Not sure if you're trying to imply that it is a bad thing, because it isn't. It's just like DRK saving 3K mana for TBN. Yet another small, but relevant skill difference.

As for your suggestions:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

1# Make it a 1min. CD, you next Iaijutsu is a 100% critical+direct hit, also remove the Kenki Cost.

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Better than nothing I guess, even though it wouldn't help with either APM or button bloat, but why would you remove Kenki cost? Resource that you use for single ability is just terrible design, might as well make Shinten CD with stacks, it would be the same.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

2# Make it have a short cooldown ~30 seconds, remove the Kenki Cost & and make it "Your next Iaijutsu is cast instantly."

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Please no. The point of Iaijutsu, hell whole SAM's job fantasy is (was) building up resources and then do some big hits. Cast times are the identity. Without cast time, it's just melee job #123, literally just "dude with that sword who slashes and shit". Cast times are also small skill gaps, which is something that current free style "anything goes" iteration of samurai desperately needs.

So in the end Kaiten is just one of the better ways to utilize Kenki, without it, Kenki is just Shinten gauge, which is worse than using Kaiten before every Iaijutsu.
And most importantly, don't forget that there is more stuff that got reworked in 6.1. Generaly all big hits got nerfed, and their potency was put into basic GCDs, meaning that it ruined the job's idea of building up resources with low damage, and then spending it in massive burst. The job was known for big hits, but the "big" hits now deal lower damage than so many other skills. NIN can crit Hyosho and deal 2.5 more damage than Midare or about 1.75-2x more than Ogi. Final attack of PLD's blade combo can deal more damage than Midare. Sure, this is just picking random straws, but it's still dumb that tank has attack that can deal higher damage than Midare.

Always funny how the people that don't even play the job feel like they know what the job needs, or the classic one I see directed at DRG all the time: "I want to like the job, but, I don't like Dragon Sight, or double weaving, or delaying life, or oGCDs or positionals, or animation locks... so I hope SE completely changes it so it fits with my nonsensical wishes, removes everything and turns combos into pvp combos!"