Nerf the Hell out of Ninja

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Because its a one or the other scenario. If they use their shield they lose out on their offensive capabilities.

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But why does it have more then double the potency of a war shield?

War even loses 6k-8k hp on 2 of its skills when used and only get a 6k-8k potency shield and some lifesteal that sucks if you can't hit multiple enemies with it.
War doesn't have ranged attack neither, less mobility, worse healing and way less dps.

Nin shield could be brought down to 6k aswell and they'd still be better than war.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

But why does it have more then double the potency of a war shield?

War even loses 6k-8k hp on 2 of its skills when used and only get a 6k-8k potency shield and some lifesteal that sucks if you can't hit multiple enemies with it.
War doesn't have ranged attack neither, less mobility, worse healing and way less dps.

Nin shield could be brought down to 6k aswell and they'd still be better than war.

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Because Bloodwhetting doesn't cost WAR an offensive action, it generates one. One that plays into Bloodwhetting's lifesteal effect and is also part of their main damage.

The HP cost for Onslaught and Orogeny isn't as drastic anymore. You heal off both in a single Chaotic Cyclone or Primal Rend if you hit two targets then utilise the damage dow debuff from Orogeny for mitigation.

It also helps that a Warrior has independent access to Bloodwhetting's shield and lifesteal, Orogeny's damage and debuff and Primal Rend's AOE stun rather than them sharing a ressource (Mudra). They also can Blota enemies in that stay far out or are retreating.

And if you run out of these tools, "maybe" dont engage yet.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

But why does it have more then double the potency of a war shield?

War even loses 6k-8k hp on 2 of its skills when used and only get a 6k-8k potency shield and some lifesteal that sucks if you can't hit multiple enemies with it.
War doesn't have ranged attack neither, less mobility, worse healing and way less dps.

Nin shield could be brought down to 6k aswell and they'd still be better than war.

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And I'm of the opinion that losing hp to use skills is stupid (even if the debuff it creates is pretty good), especially with how overly squishy war is. Stop with the "what about this job" argument. Another job needing fixes doesn't justify nerfing the other job that you think is broken but is actually mid. And as Reinhardt said, war doesn't lose their offensive action when they pop bloodwhetting.

Then make the movespeed buff stay after shield is gone, it's just stupid that a mobile opportunist melee dps job like that can shield for that much.
It may cost ninja an advanced ability, but it by default has way more abilities than other jobs to begin with so you still have the advantage of more tools left when you used your mudras.
It doesn't force you to follow a set pattern of moves neither like machinist, you get a soft lock out but can decide which skill to use first, so it still is a built in advantage again.

War can get harassed by a machinist and almost nothing he can do about it except go in which is fine as that's the downside of it, you have to get close to enemies to use your sustain except for orogeny which doesn't lifesteal, meanwhile ninja can almost fully eat a primed drill and throw a 16k attack back at the machinist, that's another problem right there, a dedicated ranged job should not be outharassed by a melee job.

War HAS to engage to use lifesteal, and that's hoping there ain't a white mage on enemy team to just miracle you and wipe you out before you can even use your lifesteal, shutting down what makes you "tanky" in the first place, meanwhile ninja don't care, he just big chilling with a 16k shield in the back throwing out 16k + 2 x 6k attacks, they can do 28k ranged damage as a melee job while mitigating almost all incoming damage.

Who cares they have to sacrifice one mudra for it? You can let an ally jump in, do a 16k ranged attack, shield up and enemy at that point is prob already below 50% hp from your combined team attack and then execute them with LB while having a 16k shield during the LB so you can safely walk out again, 0 downsides or risk involved.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

And I'm of the opinion that losing hp to use skills is stupid (even if the debuff it creates is pretty good), especially with how overly squishy war is. Stop with the "what about this job" argument. Another job needing fixes doesn't justify nerfing the other job that you think is broken but is actually mid. And as Reinhardt said, war doesn't lose their offensive action when they pop bloodwhetting.

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That's exactly the point.

Why the hell is a tank job squishier than a melee dps opportunist that doesn't need a 16k shield to begin with.

It can be a 6k shield and keep the movespeed buff up even if the shield is gone which even fits the class design better aswell, mobility over facetanking, it doesn't need to be 16k at all, it's dumb design that it's like that in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

That's exactly the point.

Why the hell is a tank job squishier than a melee dps opportunist that doesn't need a 16k shield to begin with.

It can be a 6k shield and keep the movespeed buff up even if the shield is gone which even fits the class design better aswell, mobility over facetanking, it doesn't need to be 16k at all, it's dumb design that it's like that in the first place.

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No, it isn't the point because the discussion isn't about WAR.

Why don't you play nin in CC for a bit and then tell me its as strong as you think it is. Mudras are on a CD and you only get two. You have to choose all offense, all defense or a mix of the two and you CANNOT repeat skills. If you pop the shield its locked until you do a different mudra. You have to make a decision on what you want to do when you engage. If you pop the shield you lose killing power. You may survive, but you may also not be able to kill the enemy who for example say had a LB up that could potentially turn the fight into their favor?

You need to look at the kit as a whole and not just "derp they get 16k shield so its broken"

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Originally Posted by Ransu

No, it isn't the point because the discussion isn't about WAR.

Why don't you play nin in CC for a bit and then tell me its as strong as you think it is. Mudras are on a CD and you only get two. You have to choose all offense, all defense or a mix of the two and you CANNOT repeat skills. If you pop the shield its locked until you do a different mudra. You have to make a decision on what you want to do when you engage. If you pop the shield you lose killing power. You may survive, but you may also not be able to kill the enemy who for example say had a LB up that could potentially turn the fight into their favor?

You need to look at the kit as a whole and not just "derp they get 16k shield so its broken"

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I'm surprised people struggle to understand what being an opportunist job means.

Like Gunbreaker can either be absurdly tanky, absurdly damaging or a decent AOE heal support, but needs to run the Junction for it. Dark Knight swings between being incredibly tanky and basically close to death the whole time, but it depends on how much HP you can spare.

Same is NIN, which has to decide to spend Mudras on damage, sustain or crowd control, with 5-6 of it per minute at most all on the same ressource.

It would be easier to explain what they consider unfun when playing against or as NIN like how I personally dislike Seiton's brutal swinging potential (I also play DRK so I feel personally threatened) rather than pretending that NIN is op, when it is rather mediocre.

Part of the issue isn't so much the job itself or the skills but how easily the job Ninja is abused by bots. A bot detecting the nearest below 50% HP target and locking onto them without hesitation. That's why OHKO skills are so obnoxious. But my personal beefs is with jobs in Frontlines because I can't stand CC.

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Originally Posted by Remish

Part of the issue isn't so much the job itself or the skills but how easily the job Ninja is abused by bots. A bot detecting the nearest below 50% HP target and locking onto them without hesitation. That's why OHKO skills are so obnoxious. But my personal beefs is with jobs in Frontlines because I can't stand CC.

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So use recup and keep yourself above 50% and retreat when getting focused? If you dropped below 50% to a zerg you're probably gonna die anyways, so does it really matter that a ninja ganked you with an LB?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I'm surprised people struggle to understand what being an opportunist job means.

Like Gunbreaker can either be absurdly tanky, absurdly damaging or a decent AOE heal support, but needs to run the Junction for it. Dark Knight swings between being incredibly tanky and basically close to death the whole time, but it depends on how much HP you can spare.

Same is NIN, which has to decide to spend Mudras on damage, sustain or crowd control, with 5-6 of it per minute at most all on the same ressource.

It would be easier to explain what they consider unfun when playing against or as NIN like how I personally dislike Seiton's brutal swinging potential (I also play DRK so I feel personally threatened) rather than pretending that NIN is op, when it is rather mediocre.

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That's not what an opportunist role is, you're describing a multiclass or jack of all trades role.

An opportunists job is go in, get a kill on a weak target, get out, like a jungler from a moba, that's the opportunist role and it's what ninja and also monk sort of are, or at least should be, these roles by definition do not need high survivability tools, they need high burst and mobility, anytime they do get too much of everything, you end up with a mess you're better off redesigning entirely than patching something that can never be balanced because of the bloated kit, best example of this is WoW's rogue, it's always a problem class in pvp somehow and always will be because of the tools they have.