How to make TBN feel on par with other tank Mit.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

In that case the clear problem is Abyssal Drain having a pathetic heal potency and a 60s CD, and oddly stapled to Carve and Spit in Endwalker for no real reason.
Skill could honestly have its heal potency doubled and its cooldown halved and it would probably be fine.

I really dont like the fact its attached to Carve now, because that skills fine as a 60s ogcd.
When I want changes to Abyssal, I don't want changes to Carve, but they're attached now because Square Enix said so.

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If you want something like this they should combine salted earth and abysal drain. That way you use Abysal Drain and it throws out the salted earth, then take all the damage does from salted earth including salt and darkness and turn that into life steal. If thats a little strong turn it into percentage of damage done.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

It's called a lack of HP regen. A funtime shield is okay but not when you compare it to Pld's defensive kit and War's Benediction they can spam every 15 seconds in a group pull.

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There's nothing wrong with DRK being different from other tanks. We already have so much homogeneity between jobs and their roles. Most of my tanks have nearly identical button placement so I can hop around to any tank and look competent enough. Here's my 1-2-3 single target, here's my 1-2 AOE. Here's my gauge goes up skill, or no-gauge-cost skill. Here's my mitigation stuff with slightly different names.

DRK is probably the most different of the 4. They should keep it that way.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

DRK is probably the most different of the 4. They should keep it that way.

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Valid. But it doesn't mean we cannot criticise its skills.

If comparing it to other tanks isn't valid, then sure: Is Dark Mind truly necessary? And could DRK do with a bit more durability, defensive cooldowns or sustain? Both in AoE and\or in Single Target.

If it's going to be different than the other four, it needs to feel good to play. And to a lot of people, it doesn't, either due to its damaging kit or its defensive kit. And that should be considered.

Unfortunately, this is an MMORPG and there is a role. So comparisons to other classes of that role will be innevitable.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Is Dark Mind truly necessary?

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Yes and I want to explain why.

PLD's Sheltron used to only block physical attacks. People were unhappy with this, so it was changed to block magic as well. Now it is effectively like Rampart. Homogenized.

WAR's Raw Intuition used to parry and only affect physical attacks and crit from behind. People used Awareness to nullify the crits, removing the penalty and with the PLD change, they made Raw Intuition like Rampart. Homogenized.

Let's imagine that Dark Mind is changed to mitigate physical attacks as well. It becomes Rampart. Homogenized.

We will be getting indicators to tell us which attacks are magic and which are physical soon. In some cases these indicators will be wrong but they should be right for most of them.

I've found Dark Mind very useful against magic attacks. That extra mitigation goes a long way. I find DRK to be the most strong on mitigation of any tank but that is obviously at the expense of self-heals.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes and I want to explain why.

PLD's Sheltron used to only block physical attacks. People were unhappy with this, so it was changed to block magic as well. Now it is effectively like Rampart. Homogenized.

WAR's Raw Intuition used to parry and only affect physical attacks and crit from behind. People used Awareness to nullify the crits, removing the penalty and with the PLD change, they made Raw Intuition like Rampart. Homogenized.

Let's imagine that Dark Mind is changed to mitigate physical attacks as well. It becomes Rampart. Homogenized.

We will be getting indicators to tell us which attacks are magic and which are physical soon. In some cases these indicators will be wrong but they should be right for most of them.

I've found Dark Mind very useful against magic attacks. That extra mitigation goes a long way. I find DRK to be the most strong on mitigation of any tank but that is obviously at the expense of self-heals.

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Sheltron and Raw Intuition are also baby versions of stronger skills they level up into.


Dark Mind doesn't really fit into that category. And while it is a really strong skill, the further we get away from the level you unlock it, the more questionable its existance becomes.
As it stands, its a lv 45 skill that you probably wont even use until lv 90. IMO DRK really needs some baby form of TBN unlocked in the 40s or something.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

As it stands, its a lv 45 skill that you probably wont even use until lv 90. IMO DRK really needs some baby form of TBN unlocked in the 40s or something.

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We don't really need extra mitigation then. We already have a lot more at that level than we used to.

We didn't used to have Reprisal and our combos only reduced specific types of damage on a single target after we got our full combo. We didn't have Arm's Length to slow them down at that level. Shadow Wall's cooldown was reduced in a Shadowbringers patch. We can stun and there is Souleater which does actually heal you.

Most of the content up until the start of Stormblood doesn't really hurt that much, at least not anymore because SE didn't used to item level sync dungeons very much.

Maybe I am bias, because I use raid food in dungeons which doesn't sync properly.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes and I want to explain why.

PLD's Sheltron used to only block physical attacks. People were unhappy with this, so it was changed to block magic as well. Now it is effectively like Rampart. Homogenized.

WAR's Raw Intuition used to parry and only affect physical attacks and crit from behind. People used Awareness to nullify the crits, removing the penalty and with the PLD change, they made Raw Intuition like Rampart. Homogenized.

Let's imagine that Dark Mind is changed to mitigate physical attacks as well. It becomes Rampart. Homogenized.

We will be getting indicators to tell us which attacks are magic and which are physical soon. In some cases these indicators will be wrong but they should be right for most of them.

I've found Dark Mind very useful against magic attacks. That extra mitigation goes a long way. I find DRK to be the most strong on mitigation of any tank but that is obviously at the expense of self-heals.

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Fair enough, though that's the thing. Dark Mind is only useful against magical attacks... that's literally its main point. So naturally, you will find it very useful against magical attacks. The extra mitigation, however, tends to fall in line with what other tanks have.

I was thinking of making it like Camouflage rather than Rampart, but the issue with Camo is that it gives you the possibility of cutting the physical damage by -15% (+ the normal mitigation). DRK's Dark Mind is more guaranteed.

And unfortunately, homogenization isn't necessarily what you want but you cannot help but compare it to other tanks. No other tank has a specific, unique skill that only works on one type of damage. Last time we had that, PLDs complained they weren't picked for duty. DRK doesn't have that, thankfully, but it doesn't mean that the design is good.
So rather than "make it like everyone else", I'm just saying that there are ways we can keep it unique but still do similar to other tanks in the role.

My one issue with what you said is that you see Awareness, PLD blocking magic and Raw Intuition being simplified as homogenization, whereas to me it just felt like some of it was clunk from Heavensward's design. That, and crits no longer really matter when you can mitigate and shield up the arse with healers directly, so...

Like, things don't need to be "homogenized" for there to be "equity". That's what I mean. As in, we can have unique designs just fine, so far as they don't cause issue. And to many people, the lack of sustain from DRK and its awkward mitigation path is a potential issue. Because it's not that it "has to do what WAR does". Shields and mitigation work fine... it's that sustain helps you keep afloat, especially if your healer struggles. Shields can help you slow down the momentum, but a shield won't keep you from dying. Which...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

We don't really need extra mitigation then. We already have a lot more at that level than we used to.

We didn't used to have Reprisal and our combos only reduced specific types of damage on a single target after we got our full combo. We didn't have Arm's Length to slow them down at that level. Shadow Wall's cooldown was reduced in a Shadowbringers patch. We can stun and there is Souleater which does actually heal you.

Most of the content up until the start of Stormblood doesn't really hurt that much, at least not anymore because SE didn't used to item level sync dungeons very much.

Maybe I am bias, because I use raid food in dungeons which doesn't sync properly.

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TBH Bardam's Mettle can get spicy. And we won't have TBN then. We'll have the same mitigation the role has generically. Problem is that at Bardam's Mettle, most tanks already have a solid grasp on their mitigation. I think the only one who doesn't at that time is PLD, but... PLD passively blocks things. Which is why I was focusing on Dark Mind.

And you won't Souleater in AoEs. A healer, especially someone new, can very much struggle, and the lack of sustain skills unlike other tanks is really felt on DRK.

'-' also why do you use food buffs in dungeons, do you guys tend to have surplus after raids?

Food in dungeons is probably for the 3% EXP gain.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

TBH Bardam's Mettle can get spicy. And we won't have TBN then. We'll have the same mitigation the role has generically. Problem is that at Bardam's Mettle, most tanks already have a solid grasp on their mitigation. I think the only one who doesn't at that time is PLD, but... PLD passively blocks things. Which is why I was focusing on Dark Mind.

And you won't Souleater in AoEs. A healer, especially someone new, can very much struggle, and the lack of sustain skills unlike other tanks is really felt on DRK.

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Which is why I said until Stormblood content. But since you brought it up, it's mainly the first pulls that are a struggle and I think those are rough on any tank. Fortunately, DRK recently had an improvement to Living Dead where it is also a sustain. They also have Abyssal Drain, which if used on enough enemies can heal you to full. Bardams actually has enemies that use magic attacks too (particularly the ones that spam Aero).

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'-' also why do you use food buffs in dungeons, do you guys tend to have surplus after raids?

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Food is that cheap that I can buy 99 of them, use it regularly for roulettes and easily buy more when I run out. I don't even have a lot of gil. I just make 100,000 from doing battle content and selling dungeon loot.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Food in dungeons is probably for the 3% EXP gain.

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Not necessary because I have all 90s. The extra Vitality is great for tanking and helps with survival, especially in a dungeon like Bardam's.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes and I want to explain why.

PLD's Sheltron used to only block physical attacks. People were unhappy with this, so it was changed to block magic as well. Now it is effectively like Rampart. Homogenized.

WAR's Raw Intuition used to parry and only affect physical attacks and crit from behind. People used Awareness to nullify the crits, removing the penalty and with the PLD change, they made Raw Intuition like Rampart. Homogenized.

Let's imagine that Dark Mind is changed to mitigate physical attacks as well. It becomes Rampart. Homogenized.

We will be getting indicators to tell us which attacks are magic and which are physical soon. In some cases these indicators will be wrong but they should be right for most of them.

I've found Dark Mind very useful against magic attacks. That extra mitigation goes a long way. I find DRK to be the most strong on mitigation of any tank but that is obviously at the expense of self-heals.

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I agree I don't think DRK needs extra mitigation.

It needs low level skills that rank up into the lv 80/90 ones like the other tanks have.