Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

Ah, that's a hell of an interesting thread. I agree on one thing mainly: we need Scions who have more internal conflicts. An attempt has been vaguely sketched out with Urianger, who is presented a bit quickly as a pragmatic person... at the risk of making alliances with the wrong people. Yshtola represents much the same thing: a failed alternative. It is repeatedly shown that not everyone likes his incisiveness. But this is of no consequence. For the moment, and with every exchange, it is more or less the same pattern that repeats itself:

- Alphinaud presents a plan.
- Thancred offers to act as our protector.
- A cynical remark from Yshtola.
- An impatient remark from Alisaie / jest about her brother.
- Urianger, who, uh... Rarely does anything.
- Estinian who doesn't give a damn. "Just tell me what to do, I'll go".
- Graha making eyes at WOL.
- WOL nodding
- Alphinaud recapitulates diplomatically.

I like all the Scions a lot. But they are treated too much as a group, and not enough as individuals coming together in a common cause. Another aspect reveals this bias: the total absence of disappearance or death since HW (?). I honestly think that SE is afraid of the reactions that would be caused by the disappearance of a character, and that they therefore maintain the group in a more or less artificial way.

I personally would have liked neither Thancred nor Yshtola to come back from the first reflection and that one of the transition quests was to find a way to transfer them there... For good. It would have been a great sadness, but I feel like these characters have reached the end of their arc. Thancred has left that flirty attitude of the early days; he's grown up, become a father. He went from being a back alley thief that you were reluctant to rely on to being the tank, the archetypal reliable character. I don't think (don't see ? I hope SE will surprise me on this) that it is necessary to develop him further.
In the same vein, Yshtola has been dug up a lot. She gradually became similar to her mentor... And now it would make sense for her to take his place. And Serpentige would have been perfect for that: an unknown world, where she could constantly gather new knowledge.

New blood would be welcome and necessary. And 'real' new blood, not a Graha-type character whose only personality is an obsessive admiration for the WOL. Someone who would bring a new vision of things; and break the monotony of a group to which many are attached, but which is becoming far too monochrome.

However, I am less convinced by the comparison with the group in the first reflection. In my opinion, the problem here is not the lack of "consistency" of the Scions, but rather the length of the adventure. The story of the Shadow Warriors is condensed into a few quests. Obviously, this gives the impression of more consistent stories. The Scions, on the other hand, are condemned to evolve more slowly, which can give the illusion of a certain immobility.

They lack a more solid background than "Sharlayan scholar" (which is why I liked having the focus on the twins in Endwalker), but they have indeed evolved. It's just diluted to the extreme.

It doesn't help that a lot of the depth and grit has been eliminated from Sharlayan altogether. I always liked how creepy and unsettling the music and aesthetics were whenever we encountered something tied to Sharlayan in the past. This being the nation that sent assassin squads out in the world to kill those who shared forbidden knowledge. Then when we finally get there not only is it suddenly sanitised considerably...it's now little more than a quirky college town full of overeducated but socially awkward scholars.

For some reason it also has a lot of male viera within despite being such a secretive, isolated nation and their ilk being exceedingly rare to begin with when it comes to that whole 'leaving the forest' thing. Though I suppose consistent world building and sensible NPC placement has been thrown out of the window at this point...

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It is unfortunate that some posters chose to not engage with the discussion subject in a more faithful manner, nevertheless I still stand by the fact that the Warriors of Darkness make for a better written party than the Scions. I have already explained at length my reasons as to why, and until improvements are seen in the current cast’s characterization I cannot say with confidence that I am looking forward to their continued presence. It is important to look back and re-examine what worked and what hasn’t, in order for future storytelling to improve.

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Oh dear people aren't agreeing with me, therefore their discussion is bad.

I would definitely prefer the WoD over the Scions at least just to have the interesting ideas behind them implemented into them. However the WoD stories are a one and done deal. Each had their own very short arc within their respective role quests and show not much else besides acting like assholes in the Source. Which honestly is such a huge whiplash and disconnect for me to believe that somebody like say Branden whose supposed to be a noble and good natured paladin would go around making such Saturday morning villain cartoon faces and looking like he's enjoys killing innocent people

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Looking back, there was another, more effective party of heroes that made for better storytelling than the Scions by way of their character arcs and diverse characteristics within this same game. The Warriors of Light from the First, Ardbert’s Party, who became the Warriors of Darkness. The goal of this post is to provide some comparison and analysis between the two parties.

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Here is where your premise breaks down immediately: Ardbert's party was comprised of Warriors of Light. The Scions are not Warriors of light. You are comparing apples and television sets.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It doesn't help that a lot of the depth and grit has been eliminated from Sharlayan altogether. I always liked how creepy and unsettling the music and aesthetics were whenever we encountered something tied to Sharlayan in the past. This being the nation that sent assassin squads out in the world to kill those who shared forbidden knowledge. Then when we finally get there not only is it suddenly sanitised considerably...it's now little more than a quirky college town full of overeducated but socially awkward scholars.

For some reason it also has a lot of male viera within despite being such a secretive, isolated nation and their ilk being exceedingly rare to begin with when it comes to that whole 'leaving the forest' thing. Though I suppose consistent world building and sensible NPC placement has been thrown out of the window at this point...

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Heavensward Sharlayan still had the same buildings and aesthetics in the main Sharlayan in Endwalker. The buildings look the same, but have been abandoned for years, which makes anything creepy especially when paired with magic. I wouldn't expect a populated Sharlayan with the same aesthetics that were introduced in HW to still be creepy. The only Sharlayan we meet living in the old colony is a witch in a cave, which obviously isn't representative of the whole country. We already knew from 1.0 that they were very philosophy and scholar-oriented and we learned in ARR about the academy they have so I don't see anything as having changed. The "assassination hit squad" was just one guy with very conservative opinions and his minions. It wasn't sanctified by the nation as a whole, it was one forum member.

As far as the male viera go, I was confused at first but it makes sense when you think about it. Just like western universities in our own world, Sharlayan has for centuries attracted learners from across the world. They also send out gleaners across the world. It would make sense for the gleaners to come across the viera and isn't outside the realm of possibility for a curious male viera who otherwise would have a rough life alone in the woods to want to do something different and join a gleaner back to Sharlayan and become a gleaner himself. Besides Lyna and Fran, who are both introduced outside of the woods, there are other NPCs we come across and we witness one leave ourselves. They haven't completely filled the world with them, there's only 4 male viera NPCs in the whole game. Considering they can live to be 300+, it's obviously rare, but still within a realm of possibility for an extremely small handful of them over a period of 100 or more years to get collected or curious and follow collectors to Sharlayan and be there for a very long time or even make more viera with female members who, like the rest of Sharlayan, are no longer representative of their original culture. Just like how Mikoto can't be looked at as a representative of the main center of au ra culture on the other side of the planet.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Uhmmmm ACTUALLY SWEETY here's why you're wrong

I kid. Good post. I'd like to see some of the minor scions fleshed out a bit more if we're continue having them around all the time. But ideally I'd rather have a new party entirely. I will say, I think that the scions were a lot more interesting in ARR/HW and then over time they gradually all became the same person. Character traits get buffed away (see thancred in EW) for the sake of a convenient and contrived plot. If they leaned into what made them different from each other a bit more maybe it wouldnt be so bad, but yeah, things are a bit bland at the moment. I thought estinien would be a breath of fresh air for the scions but then the estinien we got wasn't the estinien I originally liked in the first place. Dude went from legendary acclaimed dragoon with hella character depth to "hehe what is money" lol.

I suppose having a party of white haired smart people is kinda par for the course for a SE RPG but with so many different perspectives and cultures they have to lean on, it's odd they chose to keep them all sharlayan based. Imagine if we got a garlean like Jullus in the party, being torn internally between their days in the empire and nowadays, struggling to make sense of things and their place in the world outside of garlemald. That's a whole character arc right there lol ez. How about a big dumb highlander from ala mihgo who's well intentioned but always gets into fights and trouble. There are a lot of predictable media tropes they could lean into that have been done to death and it would still be more interesting than the current party of "never wrong, always right" characters we have now

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Agreed. Even if they did not kill them off in EW in UT (or anywhere else where they had the opportunity), they did have them nominally disband. It's time to experiment with retiring them, even if partially, and introducing new cast members, with more pronounced differentiation in their viewpoints and mindsets, as well as backgrounds. The current group is stale and I for one am bored to death of them. I dread the notion of 10 more years of the current crew.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

They could have done more with Scions this time and just... didn't. How about exploring Thancred's (and I suppose Urianger too) emotional turmoil about Ryne outside of a couple of grimaces? How about G'raha struggling with leaving the supposedly hopeless 8UC timeline to theoretically die only for the future he thought he saved potentially being worse (not to mention Lyna)? How about Ryne having more of a reaction to the impending death of their shard after thinking their world had been saved? How about Y'shtola showing any concern for Runar? (I don't recall her mentioning him once despite her life's mission supposedly being how to get back to him.) I could go on and on about deep, emotional themes and character development they could have delved into that were either ignored or glossed over a unbelievable amount.

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So you'd what want to erase Thancred's growth? And what behave how he had been about Minfillia til we started the plan to go visit Nabaath Areng Y'shtola had been criticizing him about? What are Ryne or Lyna supposed to do other than pray for our success? It's not like they could do anything about it. Just because we don't see some things or that they aren't lit up with a bright neon sign doesn't mean they don't happen. Even if it's in the Tales from stories.

Not sure what JRPGs you've played but Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross during the 1st play through, all of the numbered Final Fantasys, Star Ocean 2, Star Ocean til the end of time, Shining Force, Lufia, Secret of Mana and Dragon Quest tend to be more of the no choice or very limited for the protagonist. Not that I know if Iscah has played those.

To address the OP looks like you didn't read Alisaie's HW tales from story where just like Renda-Rae has to watch helplessly an entire caravan of people die that she was a guard for from a cliffside collapsing during one of Thanaland's rare thunderstorms. Most of the caravan being swept down with the mudslide. It's why she took up the art of the Red Mage and put her on the path to try and be as good if not better than the WoL in at least where fighting is concerned.

Monbryda's death might have been a long time for the player, but it's still fresh for inside game time even if you feel that it's been a year or two.

Thancred's drinking and womanizing I think were twofold. One was they're both great ways to gain information. The other was how he was dealing with the guilt of indirectly causing Minfillia's fathers death. It's why he chose to stay away from her while she grew up and put some distance between her and him. When he started to try and close that distance the bloody banquet happened. Heck he even got possessed by Lahabreha cause he worked himself too much due to the guilt he felt. That he had to make his failure up to her. The man starts to slowly work through it starting when he punches Emmanellain after his blunder with the original peace talk interruption. Still not sure what you'd of want from him in the way of action when learning that if the source were to be destroyed that the remaining shards would also go with it.

Part of his growth during ShB isn't just learning to let Minfillia go, but to realize that Ryne is her own person. That she by the time the group chooses to go to Nabaath Areng is no longer the helpless scared young woman he rescued from the depths of Elumore and that she can take care of herself. That if things did start happening on the first and she needed help that she had a big enough support system he wouldn't really need to worry as much.

I guess Y'shtola becoming injured and being taken out for most of Stormblood doesn't count. Soon after getting her back in the post HW patches.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

To address the OP looks like you didn't read Alisaie's HW tales from story where just like Renda-Rae has to watch helplessly an entire caravan of people die that she was a guard for from a cliffside collapsing during one of Thanaland's rare thunderstorms. Most of the caravan being swept down with the mudslide. It's why she took up the art of the Red Mage and put her on the path to try and be as good if not better than the WoL in at least where fighting is concerned.

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What a pity that unlike Estinien’s traumatic backstory, hers was never even hinted at in-game aside from the business with her grandfather. This however does not excuse her recent pivot in Endwalker that now has her constantly telling the WoL to take care of themselves. It is not an effective use for a character that isn’t really built up for that sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Monbryda's death might have been a long time for the player, but it's still fresh for inside game time even if you feel that it's been a year or two.

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This does nothing to address the fact that for a lot of us vets it did in fact happen 8 years ago and given how little time we spent with her, forgive us if we aren’t exactly all that attached to her or her relationship with Urianger. The time bubble happening in this game is a whole issue itself but I’d rather not go into it at length here.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Thancred's drinking and womanizing I think were twofold. One was they're both great ways to gain information. The other was how he was dealing with the guilt of indirectly causing Minfillia's fathers death. It's why he chose to stay away from her while she grew up and put some distance between her and him. When he started to try and close that distance the bloody banquet happened. Heck he even got possessed by Lahabreha cause he worked himself too much due to the guilt he felt. That he had to make his failure up to her. The man starts to slowly work through it starting when he punches Emmanellain after his blunder with the original peace talk interruption. Still not sure what you'd of want from him in the way of action when learning that if the source were to be destroyed that the remaining shards would also go with it.

Part of his growth during ShB isn't just learning to let Minfillia go, but to realize that Ryne is her own person. That she by the time the group chooses to go to Nabaath Areng is no longer the helpless scared young woman he rescued from the depths of Elumore and that she can take care of herself. That if things did start happening on the first and she needed help that she had a big enough support system he wouldn't really need to worry as much.

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Thancred’s negative characteristics made him feel like a real and fleshed out character as opposed to one that no longer has much of a reason to be around anymore, as echoed by a significant sector of the playerbase. Reread my original post to see my explanation as to why his behaviour was inappropriate for a supposed father figure in Endwalker’s MSQ. As it stands now he is the top pick for many when it comes to what character should be retired first.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I guess Y'shtola becoming injured and being taken out for most of Stormblood doesn't count. Soon after getting her back in the post HW patches.

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This is one of many examples throughout Season 1’s storyline of her sacrifices being annulled. Please re-read the OP to see why this isn’t an effective way of storytelling.

The sadness of Moenbryda's death was never about how much it affected us personally, but how much it clearly affected the other Scions who knew her well.

Urianger in particular was struck so deeply by it at the time and has never stopped talking about her since – not in every line, of course, but she's clearly never far from his thoughts, and the payoff in Endwalker is entirely about addressing his emotions, not yours.