Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

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You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

Jesus christ no one is going to be convinced by spamming walls of misinformed BS ad nauseam. I am honestly amazed anyone still bothers to even skim through with enough attention to respond.

People have objectively disproven your nonsense claims about the healer role a hundred times now, including by posting logs of your own runs. At this point you are like a flat earther complaining everyone calling you out is evidence of an "echo chamber".

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Originally Posted by Renathras

echo chamber

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Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You say we disagree, but this is my argument here, too. Yet you get 16 likes for saying the same thing. :)

Note that this is a glass half full/empty argument. We agree that the current encounter design and healing kits do not mesh. My argument is that means the encounters are badly designed, yours is that healers is..while noting that healers AREN'T "truly horribly" designed...which is...my argument.

So I'm not sure we disagree, since we're saying the same thing. It's more we disagree on the solution - to me, the encounters need to be changed going forward, to you, the healers' do. I presume from your perspective it's their DPS kits that need to be changed...which completely ignores the problem.

Hell, I've even argued that healer oGCDs are too powerful and need to be nerfed to actually force GCD healing and that would also address the problem you note of healers being able to solo heal at the same time!

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Because for the final time SE is not going to change encounter design. If your solution is to change encounter design it is 100% not going to happen because they would need to overhaul the ENTIRE GAME from ARR to now.

This is why the healing CLASSES need to change.

Would we rather SE change the encounters from the ground up? Yes. Realistically will that happen? No.
So, if encounter design is not going to change what is YOUR solution to fixing the healing classes?

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Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

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I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

That was ALL that I was trying to say in my initial point. Then it went into tangents because people can't accept someone that simply has a position that is "a few extra buttons but a largely static thing that's mostly the same in overall execution are not that different". But god forbid someone not actually agree with you folks...

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Jesus christ no one is going to be convinced by spamming walls of misinformed BS ad nauseam. I am honestly amazed anyone still bothers to even skim through with enough attention to respond.

People have objectively disproven your nonsense claims about the healer role a hundred times now, including by posting logs of your own runs. At this point you are like a flat earther complaining everyone calling you out is evidence of an "echo chamber".

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None of what I sad was "misinformed BS". I actually talked about the number of abilities, their function, and the complexity of the overall kits. And no, no one disproved my VALID AND RATIONAL claims by posting my own logs. Someone took a small segment of my log, ignored anything that disagreed with their claim, and tried some weird shaming that's honestly reportable/banable, I just don't care to pursue someone over such nonsense. At this point, posts like yours are borderline harassment.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

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"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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Farewell.

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

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There's pretty good reason for this IMO.

Healing genuinely is much more enjoyable when you're playing sub optimally, this is reflected throughout the game. New leveling dungeons are fun, learning savage is fun, learning extremes is a blast, even early MSQ battles can be enjoyable. Even Aglaia was fun the first time through, now I'm at the point where I just want to alt f4 if people wipe us to Nald'thal.

It's an illusion that falls apart once you start trying to up your game, learning how little of your kit you can get away with using and then come crashing into the horrible realisation that all you've gotten for your efforts is the joys of pressing a single button some 100+ times.

Healing in this game is genuinely and legitimately a better experience when you are playing to a lower standard and/or don't understand the content. I'm not saying that to bash anyone, it's just how it is. It's like driving with horse blinkers on, you've got less awareness so things feel tighter, faster and more hectic than they actually are.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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What isn't a subjective position is the simple fact that healer engagement has continually regressed from HW onwards.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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Farewell.

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What if I told you...

if they actually designed the healer kits well, nothing's stopping you from spamming Glare and Medica a gazillion times and having "fun" while the rest of us play a game that isn't Cookie Clicker. Just like nothing's stopping Paladin mains from spamming Fast Blade over and over again if they don't want to touch the rest of their rotation.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

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"Not far from reality". You have not, IN THE SLIGHTEST made a convincing argument that Warrior is close to White Mage in terms of damage rotation. Damage rotation for healers (or lack there of) is what the initial post was about, highlighting the double standard issue currently ruining the healer role. You come in and say "wElL wArRiOr dOesN'T hAvE mUcH oF A dAmaGe rOtaTioN eItHeR aNd wArRior iS nOt fAr oFf fRoM wHiTe mAge".

1. Off topic.
2. People are going to disagree with your statement because it is untrue. Warrior has a decent damage rotation, and it is much better off than any of the Healers.
3. The comparison you are making is meaningless, choosing to compare a healing kit vs damage rotation.
4. How about you compare the complexity of White Mage's damage rotation vs Warrior's damage rotation?

Warrior is a more engaging healer that white mage, that I grant.