Is the WoL actually good though?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Just one example i can think of is Elidibus in 5.3. We have the memory crystals to help restore his memory and we don’t even attempt to give it to him. Instead our only 2 dialogue options are telling him his people are dead and he needs to get over it(which is a bit ironic considering the final zone of EW….) Again, diadem pretty clearly states it’s due to us one of the animal species almost went extinct. Or in the drk quests, you have a nobleman who you goad into attacking you with his bodyguards so you can kill him, and the journal entry afterwards comments on his blood etc, and then you let a woman who attempted murder go free.

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Why on earth would we give him the memory crystals to jog his memory? If he could do everything he did in 6.3 just running on autopilot, what would he be capable when he's actually able to remember what he was fighting for? He was always our enemy, why would we help him when he actively rejects any attempts at understanding and wants to destroy the First and all the other reflections?

In Ere Our Curtain Falls Elidibus refuses Emet out right to even look at his memory Crystal....

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"Will you not look at your crystal?" I asked.

When Elidibus was still Elidibus and Lahabrea still Lahabrea, we had collected all of our memories of the Fourteen and committed them to crystal, that those who would take our seats one day might learn. Elidibus would, I was sure, find much within to help him remember─yet he shook his head.

"I am Elidibus. So long as I remember my duty, that is enough. Aught else I would only lose again in the course of this timeless struggle...and if these memories are truly so precious, pray do not ask that I forget them twice."

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The WoL does some pretty screwed up stuff, especially early on in ARR.
One of the first dungeons is us going into a mine and slaughtering slaves, and then we come back later and kill the distraught father of the last boss.

The faction leaders are kinda screwed up too, Merlwyb and the Kobols is a good example of that and like she said herself in EW it was recent and ongoing history.
Honestly tho this is how it is irl too, lots of morally grey or kinda scummy things from the other pov.
I'd say the WoL is flawed but has a good heart.
Thinking back I think there's a lot of stuff the WoL would probably have done differently or not at all.

Estinien is another good example too imo, I wouldn't exactly say he was a very good person in Heavensward but it was hiding inside him and it came out over the course of the story.
It doesn't undo all of the hate that was his existence before but dwelling on it too much doesn't exactly help either.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

I don't think having selfish motivations for getting into a career makes you a bad person. You are only a bad person if your selfish motivations make you do bad things in pursuit of said motivations. And whose to say that we don't move to more altruistic reasonings once we become a major player in international politics. When we say we were after fame/power/money, we were a literal nobody, not the hero of eorzea.

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Tbh I'd say that's a good motivation in most cases lol.
I think too many people settle for careers they hate because they don't, your career is something you'll spend the majority of your life on if you can't be selfish about that then what?
I think everyone owe it to themselves to be selfish about it, and ultimately if I go to see a doctor I'd rather see a doctor who chose the line of work because it's what they genuinely wanted to do and love not because their parents told them to.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

The WoL does some pretty screwed up stuff, especially early on in ARR.
One of the first dungeons is us going into a mine and slaughtering slaves, and then we come back later and kill the distraught father of the last boss.

The faction leaders are kinda screwed up too, Merlwyb and the Kobols is a good example of that and like she said herself in EW it was recent and ongoing history.
Honestly tho this is how it is irl too, lots of morally grey or kinda scummy things from the other pov.
I'd say the WoL is flawed but has a good heart.
Thinking back I think there's a lot of stuff the WoL would probably have done differently or not at all.

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A Realm Reborn had a lot of weird edge in general while the developers tried to find the right tone for the game going forward, and while this is hardly the worst part of it (sexual assault is brought up a concerning amount if you look back), there's definitely a lot of 'othering' going on and it's kinda hard to tell if that was an intentional aspect or just the natural fantasy game inclination towards declaring it okay to kill things that aren't sufficiently human.

I think it was very smart of them to make fixing that part of the writing an in-universe journey rather than just 'yeah let's not talk about that anymore'. Like you said, it's absolutely realistic that some things are abhorrent from one perspective and just don't read as that from another, and someone is not a bad person for having to learn that in one of the harder ways. Merlwyb and Estinien probably have the strongest arcs about that, but it's littered all throughout and it's among my favorite parts of the game's story. Having gone down the road to improvement doesn't make you a bad person for needing to.

One of the struggles there though is that the WoL themself doesn't get that journey so much, because... frankly, it's very hard to depict an emotional journey as complex as 'remorse for past deeds and a desire to do better in the future' with a character that only expresses themselves through dialog choices, facial expressions, and punching their palm. You kind of have to take the fact that everyone that they surround themselves with made that journey, and the gradual disappearance of those kinds of actions, as proof that the WoL did too.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

In fact, probably the best MSQ example of this is 2.55. There's actually a lot of people who chose violence that day, and the WoL was not one of them (much to the chagrin of certain players). Which is a good thing, because that day went pretty badly for everyone who did choose violence. I feel like, if the WoL was shooting for a fight to the degree that Kizuya describes, they probably wouldn't have made it to Heavensward alive and un-assassinated-for-regicide.

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The WoL would have chosen to fight back, but a condition to enter that hall was disarming yourself. They weren't strong enough to resist unarmed, and thus were forced to flee. It's actually brought up in one of the DRK quests where the WoL literally resents being disarmed and being unable to fight back.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The WoL would have chosen to fight back, but a condition to enter that hall was disarming yourself. They weren't strong enough to resist unarmed, and thus were forced to flee. It's actually brought up in one of the DRK quests where the WoL literally resents being disarmed and being unable to fight back.

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In the hindsight of the WoL of course they would have fought back, yet you do gotta admit that at that point in time they weren't really expecting to be accused of regicide against the Sultana or that the Sultana was going to flop down to the ground because of "poison" granted some of us could see it coming a mile away when it happened but I don't really think the character did. But if they had known then yeah most likely they would have fought back if they were even allowed to even have a glimpse of Nanamo with their weapon on. (It's not like Gandalf at the entrance to the Halls of King Theoden pulling out a 'his staff is his walking stick cause he's too damn old' rofl)

I mean the reason why you choose a specific city state is completely up to the player. You can write your own head canon to this.

The words we are able to say at the beginning also dont mean that our character is not good. As some already stated maybe they want power because they just lost their family and want to never be in that situation again? Or maybe they just like feeling strong. Maybe they want a fortune so that they could use the money to do even more good or maybe they simply want to live a great life. The same with the fame option. Maybe they want to be famous so that they can shine a light on things that are going wrong.

Its up to you to put meaning behind those words. Maybe your WoL does not want to talk to a stranger about their wishes thus they remain silent or maybe they dont even know themselves.

None of these things make the WoL a bad person. They are just an adventurer that risks their life to either help someone out or to get a reward for it. Nothing wrong with the latter either imo.

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Honestly IMO the WoL is sometimes too kind to their enemies. We let Gaius walk towards the Ultima Weapon, we let that one Garlean guy go so many times in Stormblood and had to put him out of his misery later. Sometimes I really wish we would not let such NPC off.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I mean the reason why you choose a specific city state is completely up to the player. You can write your own head canon to this.

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...actually, thinking about it. Who's saying our character chose the city state they wound up in because of the city itself? After all, WE didn't, we got sent there because of our starting class.

If you want to learn how to get real good at thaumaturgy, then I hope you're okay with rampant craven capitalism, because that's where you have to go.

WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators. It's not about good or bad.

Hold up. I meant to add (IMO) WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators (IMO). It's not about good or bad (IMO).

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

WOL is just a weapon and a puppet that does whatever they're told by the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators. It's not about good or bad.

Hold up. I meant to add (IMO) WOL is just a weapon and a pupped that does whatever they're told but the group they are a member of. It just so happens that the group they are a part of are some sort of self-proclaimed liberators (IMO). It's not about good or bad (IMO).

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This is a real nothingburger of a take when there's plenty of things the WoL does of their own volition solely because they want to.

The Bard and Dancer questlines are kicked off not because someone asked them to be better at kicking ass but because they're genuinely interested in learning to sing and dance. There's nothing requiring them to participate in the restoration of the Firmament, but they do it and become the top Skybuilder, donating huge amounts of furniture and materials for the restoration of Ishgard following the Dragonsong War. They aren't forced to solve archaeological puzzles, make gifts for orphans, bankroll the Ala Mhigan widow and orphan fund, restore artifacts, act as a schoolteacher, swear a personal vendetta against disgusting Sharlayan bread rations, help the tribes, build airships, delve into the Palace of the Dead or Heaven on High, act as a romantic wingman and officiate a wedding, support conservationist efforts, or many, many other things they're never strong-armed into doing.

Hell, the Shadows of Mhach questline starts becaues WoL hears about sky pirates in the Sea of Clouds thinks, "Cool beans. I wanna meet this guy." and they do meet that guy who invites them to bring their pals to raid a ghost airship for no reason other than they want to.

WoL is not Superman, but they have agency and tend toward forgiveness, kindness, compassion, and generosity while preferring to help their fellow man more often than not. They wouldn't help the Garlean Empire and certainly not the Ascians because they wouldn't agree with their motives and methods.