Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

Well Well well would you look at this, you sure you aren't one of these people from those cheat discords https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlzYhvlOdQ Trying to do a little damage control now that your cheats are becoming more well known and scared that SE MIGHT do something about it?

Can you just say specifically what the dang issue is lmao? You have 3 different arguments going on here.

Since many seem to think I have some ulterior motive, I just want to add that a lot of my side notes and suggestions change how scalable enforcement is. That's really tricky to do with some rulesets compared to others.

Where it comes to my positions on ethical practice, that is to suggest that I, as a single customer in an ocean of customers, believe the current terms are more rude than the actions the terms are supposedly fighting. You may well disagree, fair enough. You too are a valued customer.

Surely theres a way to stop pvp hacks without disrupting the benign modding community, its just a matter of figuring out how they interact with the game

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Can you just say specifically what the dang issue is lmao? You have 3 different arguments going on here.

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There are many issues tied together with the unfortunate state of the ToS in my opinion.

The MAIN problem I see is that the current ToS REQUIRE SE to get harsher and harsher over time because people WILL mod.

AFTER that, I argue that some tools that most would think are ridiculous to ban; like Discord, CURRENTLY DO fit into the definition of a bannable 3rd party tool offense. This can be cleared up by changing the ToS to be more focused on how an action affects the value of A) the product (client) and B) the service (subscription/server) being sold.

All of that ties together to create either a difficult to support set of rules or an easy to support set of rules.

By having a line at which we say, OK this tool/action has little impact on others as soon as you go your separate ways, it makes it so SE can easily avoid liability and easily keep the bulk of good faith players happy. For example if you are just using GShade or a fishing helper, you should not be banned.

On the other side of that line, enforcement being specific to the damage done to other players reduces how serious support staff has to be to take basic action. If you are pushing your luck and get a first offense suspension to some specific content, it is not immediately losing your whole account. SE is already often nice this way in practice but it makes it so their ToS can reflect this without complex definitions and also reduces the ability for players to complain legally

Note; very often terrible arguments make great headway in courts. Consider the lawsuits about hot coffee from McDonalds. It is wise to avoid these problems from the start where possible

To another above post, as I've hit the daily post limit lol

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Originally Posted by MrJadeOfStars

Well Well well would you look at this, you sure you aren't one of these people from those cheat discords https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlzYhvlOdQ Trying to do a little damage control now that your cheats are becoming more well known and scared that SE MIGHT do something about it?

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I really don't get this one, alas. I agree with pretty much eeeverything said in that video IN this post. You are suggesting I am cheating in PVP? I wish SE would post my CC record or past Frontline record haha. I have not even had a single ranked game in CC yet because I'm still trash lol

He mentions how Dalamud launcher has only content mods, and draws the same line between mods that meaningfully change gameplay. Yeah! I love that. Great video

I'll tell you what I'd like to make. Top of my list:

1. Plugin that scans your inventory/retainers and tells you what you can craft. OMG please. GW2 had me so spoiled....
2. Plugin that works with #1 to tell you the profit margin on all the craftable results
3. Plugin that allows players to accept crafting orders from other players while offline and notify them when order is fulfilled
4. Plugin that helps manage trophies and identify next steps to acquire gear/mounts/achievements
5. Plugin that condenses combos to single buttons like in PvP, while highlighting actions that can branch off the standard combo

If SE ever release an official ruleset for allowed addons or an official SDK where there was a review process before being sanctioned, I would expect that plugin #2 and plugin #5 may get rejected. And that I could understand, though I'd hope to be allowed. Even if they were all rejected, at least it would be clear that I could use the same tools as my friends for whatever tools do get accepted.

Were old pvp modes also rife with mod cheats as well?

If so, I'm surprised that SE did not deal with the mod cheaters for so long until it was brought to attention due to the popularity of the new pvp modes.

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Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

There are many issues tied together with the unfortunate state of the ToS in my opinion.

The MAIN problem I see is that the current ToS REQUIRE SE to get harsher and harsher over time because people WILL mod.

AFTER that, I argue that some tools that most would think are ridiculous to ban; like Discord, CURRENTLY DO fit into the definition of a bannable 3rd party tool offense. This can be cleared up by changing the ToS to be more focused on how an action affects the value of A) the product (client) and B) the service (subscription/server) being sold.

All of that ties together to create either a difficult to support set of rules or an easy to support set of rules.

By having a line at which we say, OK this tool/action has little impact on others as soon as you go your separate ways, it makes it so SE can easily avoid liability and easily keep the bulk of good faith players happy. For example if you are just using GShade or a fishing helper, you should not be banned.

On the other side of that line, enforcement being specific to the damage done to other players reduces how serious support staff has to be to take basic action. If you are pushing your luck and get a first offense suspension to some specific content, it is not immediately losing your whole account. SE is already often nice this way in practice but it makes it so their ToS can reflect this without complex definitions and also reduces the ability for players to complain legally

Note; very often terrible arguments make great headway in courts. Consider the lawsuits about hot coffee from McDonalds. It is wise to avoid these problems from the start where possible

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You are asking for SE to highlight what is allowed what is not.. but tools you are talking about always in "gray area" a third party software can be harmless at initial release but it might change it is direction after several update (or it might change it is function after secondary user alteration).

I doubt SE will give any green light any third party software. This is a unreasonable liability for them.

As much as I love it, the cheating now rampant in CC is a perfect example of why the devs really shouldn't bother anymore with PvP.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

As much as I love it, the cheating now rampant in CC is a perfect example of why the devs really shouldn't bother anymore with PvP.

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Huh what? So instead of addressing the cheating issue, the developers should just abandon the new pvp which has been a rousing success?

That's like throwing out the baby together with the bathwater.

you don't handle cheaters gracefully.
You deal with them decisively.