How would you address Button Bloat on healers?

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

If you mean Addersgall, that's literally a copy paste of Scholar, not White Mage. White mage's Lily system revolves around the Blood Lily, which Sage doesn't have, without it the gauge has no reason to exist.
If you mean Addersting then i have no clue how you asses game mechanics but that ain't it.

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They explained that Addersgall is gained over time just like lilies, unlike Aetherflow which is gained every 60s as a full stack. I wouldn't say that lilies "revolve" around the blood lily, as the mechanic is introduced at level 52 and Misery only about 20+ levels later. The lily system works just fine even before you get misery, it's just bland (and still is after Misery). Besides, SGE doesn't have Energy Drain either, so it can't be a "copy paste of Scholar".

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Originally Posted by rewd

They explained that Addersgall is gained over time just like lilies, unlike Aetherflow which is gained every 60s as a full stack. I wouldn't say that lilies "revolve" around the blood lily, as the mechanic is introduced at level 52 and Misery only about 20+ levels later. The lily system works just fine even before you get misery, it's just bland (and still is after Misery). Besides, SGE doesn't have Energy Drain either, so it can't be a "copy paste of Scholar".

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"Gained over time" rather than pressing a button on cooldown is just the same idea with different execution. Both Addersgall & Aetherflow generate 3 stacks every 60s. Both systems have the same abilities tied to it except a slightly different execution on 2 of them (and the brain tumor called Energy Drain).
The lily system on the other hand only really exists because it's meant to feed the blood lily and I don't agree it's fine at 52. It's like unlocking Draw at 52 and Astrodyne & Divination at level 74 & 76. Just not having your core gameplay loop for base game & 2 expansions. Afflatus spells have no reason to exist as a GCD heal if Misery doesn't exist to offset the DPS loss, that's why the system revolves around it and prior to that Afflatus feels pointless and would be better off being a oGCD, which then would be more like SCH's and SGE's job gauges.
Also you can't really make the argument that "I wouldn't say that lilies "revolve" around the blood lily, as the mechanic is introduced at level 52 and Misery only about 20+ levels later." when most criticism of WHM's design is that the lily system is backloaded way too much and should be introduced in ARR level range, because that's what every other healing job does in this game. None of them leave ARR level range without their main job gauge being fully realized. Same with ED, just because SGE didn't copy a problematic mechanic doesn't mean it's less copy pasty. It's the same system just better executed as it doesn't require a pointless button to be pressed on cooldown and doesn't punish your DPS for healing with it. But that's a pointless discussion with you because i know you love that button like a hostage suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

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Originally Posted by rewd

The lily system works just fine even before you get misery, it's just bland (and still is after Misery).

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It really doesn't.

The Lily system is hilariously, ridiculously, abominably bad before Misery. Afterwards it's just bad.

They're GCD heals, you lose a full GCD of damage every cast while SGE/SCH gets oGCD's that they can even weave with GCD heals for more burst (granted Adlo clips very slightly). Not only that but while SCH/SGE get their single target version much earlier and their Rapture version at lv52, WHM is stuck waiting 24 more levels for theirs. They don't even get Rapture or Misery in 2 of the Ultimate fights. Solace itself is basically a Swiftcast Cure II every 30 sec. That's all it is, you main class resource, a Swift Cure II once every half a minute. To add insult, you barely even have anything to weave with it. Then finally you get a Swift Medica and a partial refund. No Kera or Soil or anything actually good. A plain Medica.

It's a joke.

How i'd fix it, rework of all the healers jobs. Fewer ocgd heals, remove redundant skills( im looking at you draw, play etc.) Remove the dot(sch could even get more) and remove repose, lucid dreaming, swiftcast, surecast and rescue, change rezzs to charged abilities with a cd of one minute.
Like as part of the rework lilies would change already on hotbar skills like cure or medica and tie misery to something else or make it a cd.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

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Any particular reason you are overthinking this, taking things out of context and going off on a tangent?

It all started from someone saying that Addersgall works like lilies, which is true. The only difference is that the former is gained every 20s, the latter every 30s. You then said that Addersgall is copy and paste from Aetherflow, but this is objectively false as SCH has the option to convert Aetherflow into damage, which SGE can't do. You can engage in mental gymnastics and say they are the same because, after all, SCH too gains three stacks every 60s, but I'm not sure what you are aiming for with all this useless nitpicking?

As for the rest (and this includes my reply to Liam too): I didn't say that lilies are a good system. I said it's fine because it has a reason to exist even without Misery. It's a boring and mediocre system (like WHM in its entirety). It's still bad and mediocre with Misery. It would still be mediocre and underwhelming with oGCD lilies, too. Misery was, and is, an afterthought. No more and no less. EW only confirmed this, although it was already obvious. To be fair, the whole system and the job is pretty much an afterthought, which is why my stance on WHM has been just "burn it to the ground and rebuild the job completely".

What are you trying to express with your AST example? Draw and Divination are independent cooldowns and Astrodyne is irrelevant. If anything, it mirrors the situation with lilies and Misery. You could delete Astrodyne and Misery from the game and not much would change. Cards would still be boring and uninspired yet functional, and lilies would still be mediocre and something that you would want to avoid using. As Liam correctly said: Misery existing changes a system from "hilariously, ridiculously, abominably bad" to "bad". For something around which the whole system allegedly revolves around, this isn't much of a win, is it?

What's up with the last bit about me allegedly loving Energy Drain? What does this have to do with anything in this discussion? And when did I say I love it? I don't love it nor do I lose my sleep over it. Unless you want to be an awful interlocutor, you shouldn't use hyperboles. You should also stick to the topic of the discussion because your message was hard to read and reply to as you just jump from a bad example to an unrelated topic more than one time.

Unpopular opinion, but I like the card system on two separate buttons,

oGCDs that have almost no cooldown timer sometimes queue up when you mash a button twice+, so you could end up drawing and playing instantly (usually on yourself).
ATM this is most visible on NIN mudras, sometimes I execute the first one twice, gotta be very careful not to press the button twice.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Also, the only skills SGE can't stack are Taurochole and Kerachole, and this is only a """problem""" in dungeons and dungeon healing is trivial. There's no skill involved.

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You clearly didn't have the same tanks I did while leveling if you think dungeon healing is "trivial". Leveling healing is some of the more active healing in the game.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You clearly didn't have the same tanks I did while leveling if you think dungeon healing is "trivial". Leveling healing is some of the more active healing in the game.

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It's more active for the "wrong" reasons though, because people have no clue what they're doing with their job, while the gear barely meets ilvl requirements.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You clearly didn't have the same tanks I did while leveling if you think dungeon healing is "trivial". Leveling healing is some of the more active healing in the game.

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This is the "argument" people use when veterans say that healing in this game is easy because damage is scripted, too low and too infrequent. If dungeon healing is not trivial because once in a while you get a bad tank, guess what: just play with bad people in alliance raids, Savage and Ultimate and healing will always be be great and active!

Yay, we fixed healers!

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Originally Posted by rewd

It all started from someone saying that Addersgall works like lilies, which is true. The only difference is that the former is gained every 20s, the latter every 30s. You then said that Addersgall is copy and paste from Aetherflow, but this is objectively false as SCH has the option to convert Aetherflow into damage, which SGE can't do. You can engage in mental gymnastics and say they are the same because, after all, SCH too gains three stacks every 60s, but I'm not sure what you are aiming for with all this useless nitpicking?

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Similarities between Lillies and Addersgall:
-Both resources are generated over time and not even at the same rate

They dont even use the same heals (Gcd vs oGCD), the heals are not unlocked at similar levels nor have similar effects, they dont reward the player nor work for the mp economy of the job in the same way

Similarities between Aetherflow and Addersgall:
-Both are unlocked at lv45
-Both generate 3 stacks of the resource per minute
-Both are used for oGCD heals
-Both have said oGCDs that follow the same pattern of: 1s recast time st ogcd heal (unlocked at lv45), 45s recast time stronger ogcd st heal (unlocked at 62), 15s aoe 100 potency regen heal with mitigation with 30s recast (unlocked at 50 and gets upgraded at lv78), 30s recast aoe burst heal of 400 potency (unlocked at 52)
-Both have an action unlocked at lv74 with 90s cd that allow for one potential additional stack
-Both have mp restoration effects attached to them with similar values (20% vs 21% per minute)

Only difference between both systems is that sage gains it in a passive way and do not have ED leeching it.

The only "objective" things here is that lillies have much less in common with addersgall in how they work than aetherflow and that addersgall and aetherflow are the most identical core systems two jobs have in the game.