Quick thought with paladin and 1.22b

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Originally Posted by waldo

Warrior either needs to be a good tank, or good DPS. Not both. Sorry for all those that don't want to hear this, but it's 100% true.

When paladin's start being both good tanks, and good healers, I will take what I said back, but until then, both classes should only get to do one thing well.

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They aren't both at the same time, heck DD War isn't even a good DD unless you're fighting too weak stuff.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

According to FFXI. I'm trying to be a little more generalized when looking at stats. Though yes, Warriors and Paladins in WoW had shield block rating and chance of block boosted by strength. As I said, it helps the stat serve a dual purpose while keeping in mind that tank DPS does matter to an extent. That way STR doesn't look like a waste of itemization or awkward as a main stat for PLD.
We're both speaking on opinion. I think that if STR doesn't do enough for PLD then it needs to be changes in a way that it does more for a PLD and only a PLD. If it has to come down to stat scaling per individual class rather than a blanket rule that applies to everyone, I am fine with that because I know it'll most likely get the job done.
Don't go down that road, please. Healing has and should always be secondary in the case of PLD. The closer it is to flavor, the better. As such, the healing should always be weaker and fall into the "nice to have" category. Remember that the job is a knight in shining armor, not half tank half healer.

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I wasn't drawing from XI I was looking at it from a system of all classes/jobs benefit from stats in the same way. Why would one person being physically strong have a better parry rate than someone else who is equally strong? Stats help separate roles and create clear distinctions, A mage since both can use shields shouldn't get cnj mnd adds block rate, thm int adds block rate, while gla str adds block rate. The flip side of that would be lnc acc is based on str, pld hp is based on str, war def is based on str. Neither of those are incredibly sensible imo of course.

That last /quote isn't mine, you should probably give credit to the original author rather than leaving it to seem like mine, I didn't see where it came from but it's not horribly wrong at any rate.

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Originally Posted by waldo

Christ some really long post here. I was just saying, common sen e tells me warrior tanking stats match up perfectly, VIT & STR, for their role... Paladin doesn't seem to match at all for a tanking roll. STR and MND doesn't seem optimal for a paladin style tank.

My common since may be flawed, but all I'm saying is before warrior is dismantled and paladin skills and WS are changed all around, give the primary and secondary stats a look SE.

Thanks

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Most of the walls of text agree with that. Well mine do at any rate. I won't say it doesn't need alot more than just the stats changed cause it really does, but this is certainly a part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Limiting the game to one tank class is a very bad thing, so no thanks. We need more variety in our party roles, not less.

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But there is no variety now, it's all war whm brd blmx5, you can blame content or class/job inbalance but in either case it's broken.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

WAR being picked over PLD means PLD needs to be fixed, not that WAR's ability to tank should be taken away. Try again.

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It means they both need balancing. Buffing PLD to match WAR will just make PLD OP too. That's not to say take away a WAR's ability to tank but it shouldn't be a good DD while tanking, if it's going to get a dual role it shouldn't be so powerful. Unless they can make PLDs secondary role equally useful to a party, w/o making them both OPd.

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Originally Posted by waldo

Warrior either needs to be a good tank, or good DPS. Not both. Sorry for all those that don't want to hear this, but it's 100% true.

When paladin's start being both good tanks, and good healers, I will take what I said back, but until then, both classes should only get to do one thing well.

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Yes

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I wasn't drawing from XI I was looking at it from a system of all classes/jobs benefit from stats in the same way.

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It work work. Blanket systems that affect everyone will always have one or two classes that don't exactly fit. Hence why I said, PLD should have a unique benefit from STR so that STR as one of its main stats makes sense.

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Originally Posted by waldo

When paladin's start being both good tanks, and good healers, I will take what I said back, but until then, both classes should only get to do one thing well.

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I'll be more eager to ask for Holy Swordskills before asking for healing buffs for PLD. I will not see another knight in shining armor get upstaged by its heals.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It work work. Blanket systems that affect everyone will always have one or two classes that don't exactly fit. Hence why I said, PLD should have a unique benefit from STR so that STR as one of its main stats makes sense.

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Or just change it's primary stats so that they make sense, VIT & MND, VIT & DEX, MND & DEX, it doesn't have to be STR, get outside the box a little.

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I'll be more eager to ask for Holy Swordskills before asking for healing buffs for PLD. I will not see another knight in shining armor get upstaged by its heals.

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That's a dam fine idea, Agrias power go. ^^

Um... I'm pretty sure str helps reduce the dmg when you block with shields....

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Originally Posted by waldo

Warrior either needs to be a good tank, or good DPS. Not both. Sorry for all those that don't want to hear this, but it's 100% true.

When paladin's start being both good tanks, and good healers, I will take what I said back, but until then, both classes should only get to do one thing well.

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Warrior is a tank. Will always be. There's no other way really around it at this point. We have enough DD that are way better than what war will ever be and those will be picked because of that role. Not to mention future classes that will also be DD.

Let's look at skills WAR will not be able to use in dd. You can already minus 3 of the 5 skills that WAR get. Collusion, Vengance and Antagonize. A dd is suppose to put as little hate on them as possible so that for one the tank can keep hate and for two so that they can deal more damage and not have to hold back. All 3 of those are meant to put hate on WAR.

And that is not including MRD skills which can be outright useless in almost all cases. Two skill attacks have to be used when parried and of course you know what that means. Rampage would be useless over a DD class when you could use berserk. Foresight and provoke would also be not used very often.

Warrior was meant to be a tank and play a different role from a Paladin because it would be useless to have two tank classes that can cure itself and tank and deal low damage.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Or just change it's primary stats so that they make sense, VIT & MND, VIT & DEX, MND & DEX, it doesn't have to be STR, get outside the box a little.

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Considering I'm not the one going on about how STR is not a tank stat, I don't think I'm the one inside the box...

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That's a damn fine idea, Agrias power go. ^^

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It's definitely something I wish more Final Fantasy games touched upon. That and I like to think that Agrias was a different flavor of Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Considering I'm not the one going on about how STR is not a tank stat, I don't think I'm the one inside the box...
It's definitely something I wish more Final Fantasy games touched upon. That and I like to think that Agrias was a different flavor of Paladin.

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I didn't say STR isn't a tank stat, I said that the design for PLD as it is makes STR not a stat for it. It's design is around turtle tanking, not around DPS tanking, that's WARs gig. So yep STR on WAR as tank, Anti-STR on PLD because of it's design.