I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

It wouldn't surprise me to see Zenos turn good in true Golbez fashion. (Mind control this whole time!?!?!")

Love or hate him, he is very powerful and would make a powerful ally..assuming sanity.

Won't be the final ones since the story will continue on after 6.0

Suicide Squad Joker Tier character

They'll probably be the final bosses of the base story, but not of the whole expansion.
Sorta like Emet Selch.

Out of nowhere, it's Necron!

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To me Zenos is very human. He speaks of that human nature and does not wear any masks on what he is and what he wants. How far he is willing to run over anyone and everyone to get what he wants. Nothing so far we seen push him to that. I think people don't like him because he hits home to people human nature a little too much. He is brute force and people find it harder to accept someone evil without being a victim. I love that he is not one. He is just selfish.

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"human nature".. Lol we get it, you're edgy XD

Kinda amusing seeing you deemed raubahn boring, but Zenos isn't. From 4.0 we already knew what sort of person Zenos is. Someone who won't stop until he gets what he wants. Considering how much he's going on and on and on about wanting to fight us again, it's not surprising he caused a calamity just for that. Nothing is more predictable than him. Unless the writer decides to ""subvert our expectation"" by adding twist near the end.

Chaos=/= exciting

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Originally Posted by Kozh

"human nature".. Lol we get it, you're edgy XD

Kinda amusing seeing you deemed raubahn boring, but Zenos isn't. From 4.0 we already knew what sort of person Zenos is. Someone who won't stop until he gets what he wants. Considering how much he's going on and on and on about wanting to fight us again, it's not surprising he caused a calamity just for that. Nothing is more predictable than him. Unless the writer decides to ""subvert our expectation"" by adding twist near the end.

Chaos=/= exciting

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I mean if seeing just how messed up the world is, and able to enjoy people being evil in a story makes me edgy. I guess I will be edgy? Like, stories are so boring when every bad person we go against is a victim. I mean I guess it is cool to hate "edgy people" but predictable is all in the eye of the beholder. "Spoiler moment" Him taking his own life, was not predictable to me. To be that selfish, and come back to kill off his family and empire. Like, I don't see how anyone can say he has been predictable.

And chaos is very much exciting, like I said. I roll my eyes every single time a bad person is just a victim and lashing out like a child. I want someone just plain cruel, and that is what we got.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To me Zenos is very human. He speaks of that human nature and does not wear any masks on what he is and what he wants. How far he is willing to run over anyone and everyone to get what he wants. Nothing so far we seen push him to that. I think people don't like him because he hits home to people human nature a little too much. He is brute force and people find it harder to accept someone evil without being a victim. I love that he is not one. He is just selfish.

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Sorry, but I don't think you have a very good handle on human nature, insightful as you seem to fancy yourself. There are no 'pure evil' human beings. There are broken, flawed, and maliciously-inclined people - there are definitely a lot of folks out there who perform evil acts for selfish reasons, and more than a few who make a habit out of it. But I have never encountered or read about a pure evil person - that implies that someone cannot perform any acts of good at all; that nothing they do, from the moment they rise until they fall asleep, is anything but mean and malevolent; that no opportunity for doing badness is ever missed. Nobody in human history has been wired that way - it simply isn't possible. Point to an 'evil' - even notoriously-so - figure in the historical record, and I can poke holes in any notion that he or she was pure, unmitigated wickedness.

Furthermore, I would argue strongly that the best villains are those who are working towards understandable goals. Maybe we sympathize with those goals; maybe we don't - but we can at least comprehend what drives these antagonists to do the evil that they do. This isn't about moral relativity, either - I'm not saying that, for example, Magneto or Darth Vader aren't evil. It's just that we can understand what makes them tick. And, at times, we can embrace what they're doing and how they are doing it: by taking the swiftest, quickest, most Machiavellian path to their objective.

Zenos wants to fight us again. That's it. That's his sustaining, single goal. And it's borderline incomprehensible justification for burning the world. Why wouldn't he just challenge us to mortal combat? Why go through some elaborate, unnecessary show just to 'lure us out'...? We don't need to be lured - we're there, all the time, and we have a long-standing record of burying people. Zenos, more than anyone else, should know this. This makes both his motives and his methods ludicrous, unnecessary, and - above all else - unrelatable. We cannot put ourselves in Zenos' shoes and understand why he would take the 10,000 mile route to his goal when we live 3 blocks away, and he could trot on over, throw rocks at our windows, and get the same fight he claims to be itching for.

I find fandaniel boring.

Chaotic evil villains are boring.

And I'm pretty sure that no at the end of 5.5 was Venat, so I'm not sure they'll be it either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zenos is, much like G'raha Tia, some of the game's worst writing as far as I'm concerned. Both come at the expense of characters with far more depth and nuance. Both have a forced and contrived obsession with the player character and both continue to overstay their welcome in the eyes of many.

Given that Zenos is also one of the few characters deliberately written to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever I also find myself raising an eyebrow whenever people praise or sympathise with him. Especially when that praise involves attributing factors and depth to him that simply isn't there.

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I agree completely. As with a growing number of the game's fans, I am hopeful Zenos will be permanently disposed of with 6.0 and won't hog up the final antagonist spotlight. He's one of the dullest examples of the type of villain he represents, so dull that Fandaniel had to be brought in to carry the story for 6.0, and the promise of a deeper backstory for this little jester had to be made. He was alright in SB but I've little interest in him now and no writing Ishikawa can tack on is really going to do much to alter my view of him. I don't expect him to become a Scion but it'd further reduce my interest in the game's story if he were to, although perhaps not as bad as G'raha joining.

With them ruling out Fandaniel as the final boss, I am hoping Venat turns out to be the actual major antagonist, as there is a lot of potential to weave an interesting story out of that. If not, then whatever Fandaniel might be serving. Some manner of subversion at least so that the story isn't as predictable as some are sketching it out to be.

6.0 will be a useful bellwether at least of whether I like their style of writing, or not, for stories beyond the H/Z arc.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

They'll probably be the final bosses of the base story, but not of the whole expansion.
Sorta like Emet Selch.

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There is no "base story" this time. 6.0 is concluding the entire arc. While it has been said it will be longer than SHB's MSQ, 6.3 won't be the concluding story patch of this expansion, based on what they've said. Given that the MSQ is longer though, it's possible there will be an extra boss trial.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I mean if seeing just how messed up the world is, and able to enjoy people being evil in a story makes me edgy. I guess I will be edgy? Like, stories are so boring when every bad person we go against is a victim. I mean I guess it is cool to hate "edgy people" but predictable is all in the eye of the beholder. "Spoiler moment" Him taking his own life, was not predictable to me. To be that selfish, and come back to kill off his family and empire. Like, I don't see how anyone can say he has been predictable.

And chaos is very much exciting, like I said. I roll my eyes every single time a bad person is just a victim and lashing out like a child. I want someone just plain cruel, and that is what we got.

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I don't care much for victim sob stories, either, be they protagonists' or antagonists' - I far prefer strong logical, story-based reasoning over muh feelz - but equally there needs to be an engaging backstory. It would seem they've realised that Zenos is unable as a villain to carry the future story and brought in Fandaniel for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Lol what if the final boss is Zenos merged with fandaniel instead with hydaelyn or zodiark. And turns out that fandaniel is Zenos's soul fragments.

Jest aside, I'm not too thrilled with the chance that they're going to pay homage for sephiroth with Zenos. Imagine if we deal with human Zenos as 89 trial, then he escape and merge with something, become monster that we fight in final trial. Then for the first time we will get a solo instance after final trial where we fight human Zenos again.

Yeah.. Nope.. I will take anything besides that.

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I have a suspicion they might go with that, actually. Still think it's possible they're angling for him to be composed of Azem shards that were ferried over, but the prospect of them being linked soul shards, and Fandaniel thereby being able to force a merger on a weakened Zenos, does strike me as a possibility.