Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

or you could pull big, test your and the group's limit with pull sizes and adjust accordingly afterwrds instead of being scared about possibly dying and wiping

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When I pull, I pull big. Or, used to, in pugs.
And believe me, there are enough cases where I end up hitting the dirt in the above said dungeons, even with defensive cooldowns fired. Either by healers/DPS not equipped/skillful enough to clear the groups fast enough.

At times it really shows that leveling in potd/hoh makes for subpar players when facing actual dungeons that are somewhat demanding.

Seeing Black Mages still using Transpose in Level 72+ rotations shows how much DPS care for staying on top with their job.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

says you
nothing keeps anyone else from pulling enemies and then moving them towards the tank who can easily pick those enemies up with 1 (one) AOE aside from the tank's ego

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If the tank is a second or two late, you're dead. If the healer can't keep up with the added enemies for whatever reason, you're dead. If the healer throws a heal at you because you started getting hit, chances are that the pull will be pretty messy with enemies running everywhere. Early pull during a savage/ultimate, and that's half your health gone in a single auto-attack.

When I said that pulling is not the healer or DPS's job, it goes a bit more indepth that just saying "everyone can pull". It's that you're definitly not well equipped for that task, and that there are so much variables that you don't know about or don't consider that Tanks are, by far, the best suited to engage enemies first.

I recently had a Brayflox Longstop run with a tank having a lot of tankxiety. We were grouped with a NIN that was constantly pulling first, making each pull quite hard to deal with, not even mentionning the lack of AoE damage, or the fact that I was forced to stop DPSing as a healer to save their (not)sorry face. If was pretty stressfull and frustrating for the tank, and we probably lost more time trying to fix everything caused by the NIN than we gained with these pulls.
Let's just say that this experience didn't help with the tankxiety.

You can pull as a healer/DPS. But these roles aren't designed to deal with the consequences of pulling.
And if you can't handle the consequences of pulling without putting the burden on someone else (the tank having to catch up, or the healer getting aggro for saving you), then simply don't do it.

There’s no reason for DPS to pull ever either. Personally I don’t have an issue because I love wall to walls so there’s isn’t anything left to pull but if a dps pulls on accident you take the aggro back and save them. If he’s doing it on purpose or to be annoying you warn them/kick them. There’s no reason the entire party needs to accommodate the bad behavior of one player.

The DPS shaming the tanks suffer from the same ego complex thinking they get to decide how the dungeon will run because they want it faster. A tank knows how many CDs he has left and how well the healer is doing. If they’re barely coming out alive with all CDs used and the healer is struggling to keep up and not even dpsing(aggravating the issue) it may be reasonable for the tank to alternate single pulls while his cool downs reset. And it would be wrong of the DPS to take matters into their own hands and pull more mobs because he just wants faster and is willing to wipe the party over it.

Pulling more because you're bored or want a faster run isn't seen as being nice when in a pug. Heck sometimes even when you're in a partial and you're not covering either the tank or healer rolls. You want to have that type of behavior make a full pre-made. This kind of behavior is how MCH got blank taken away and WHM have Fluid Aura nerfed into the ground to the point it's practically useless. And no people aren't expecting everyone to be on their toes so even if someone is doing things still can go sideways. Thankfully most of the time this doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Calling them mentally and emotionally stunted doesn't make you look good either, you know. If you can't make it work without insulting the other side, then don't try to bother with a discussion.

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I'm not here to discuss anything. This isn't a debate worth having. I'm just stating something. I don't care if I offend people that are willing to grief strangers because their ego is besmirched. Those are the types of people that I intentionally go out of my way to exclude from my social circle in the first place.

If a player is so emotionally bothered by someone pulling a few extra mobs that they are willing to grief a dungeon run and potentially harm 2-6 strangers that aren't even involved in the situation, they are unstable and exercising poor judgement.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I'm not here to discuss anything. This isn't a debate worth having. I'm just stating something. I don't care if I offend people that are willing to grief strangers because their ego is besmirched. Those are the types of people that I intentionally go out of my way to exclude from my social circle in the first place.

If a player is so emotionally bothered by someone pulling a few extra mobs that they are willing to grief a dungeon run and potentially harm 2-6 strangers that aren't even involved in the situation, they are unstable and exercising poor judgement.

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Then you shouldn’t be in the forums. A forum is defined by the dictionary as a public meeting space for open discussion. What you are doing is insulting others and is reportable behavior. So I would encourage you to leave if you are not here for discussion and I would encourage everyone here to report you if you keep this terrible behavior up.

You are going against everything a forum is supposed to be. What you think is no more important than what another person thinks, and you don’t get to decide what conversations are worth having, if this was important enough for community members to talk about you have no grounds to come here and call them unstable.

Please keep it respectful.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Then you shouldn’t be in the forums. A forum is defined by the dictionary as a public meeting space for open discussion. What you are doing is insulting others and is reportable behavior. So I would encourage you to leave if you are not here for discussion and I would encourage everyone here to report you if you keep this terrible behavior up.

You are going against everything a forum is supposed to be. What you think is no more important than what another person thinks, and you don’t get to decide what conversations are worth having, if this was important enough for community members to talk about you have no grounds to come here and call them unstable.

Please keep it respectful.

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It's ironic criticizing 'terrible behavior' in a thread full of people openly endorsing and supporting griefing other players in a video game.

People that give into petty emotion and hurt innocent players for revenge will never receive my sympathy. What do you think happens to the healer that healed the DPS that you're trying to let die? What happens to the other DPS that also tags the mobs they're fighting? I've seen these losers force full party wipes. I've sat in discords with grown adults literally screaming down the mic in anger because someone pulled a mob ahead of them, only to try to engage in this kind of behavior.

I've watched people manufacture situations where they can engage in this stupid behavior. I was playing with an FC mate once, and he saw a DPS run slightly ahead in a segment of the dungeon with no mobs. Immediately, he started getting heated and expressed that he felt the guy was trying to pull for him. While running towards the next mob pull, he intentionally made for them as if he was going to pull and stopped just beyond their aggro range while the DPS cast a spell. He essentially tricked the player into pulling, and then attempted to let him die because he felt like the dude was trying to pull for him. Humorously enough, the DPS simply tanked the pull which just made the tank angrier.

There is no worthwhile discussion or debate on this topic. This is negative, emotionally motivated behavior intended to harm other players. If someone engages in this kind of behavior they should duly be reported.

I am providing information regarding where this behavior comes from, and how to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

If you run into one of those "you pull it you tank it" kind of tanks and they're doing that thing where they look like they're gonna pull more but keep running back to the first group of enemies, either give them the swift boot or eat the 30 minute penalty. And if they decide to "punish" you by letting you die from accidentally pulling mobs or hurl insulting remarks at you, report them immediately.

The only way to deal with those kind of people is to fight fire with fire, because it's the only way to get through their skulls that their behavior is unwarranted and unwelcome.

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I had a lvl 80 BLM in Pagl'than yesterday. He was ilvl 535 to my 520 as a tank.

I'm used to pulling big but this guy wasn't giving me a single GCD to get aggro on packs. Wasn't using Manaward, or Aetherial Manipulation to get next to me with the mobs.

Not to mention healer kept using Regen while I was running to get packs. I'll remove it, instantly back on.

Long story short, other players in the group were making a hell of a lot harder to tank stuff than it needed to be.

I get that aggro is easy to keep but the start of pulls is literally the worst time for a tank. Give me at least a GCD or two to get aggro if you're going to blast stuff.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Where DPS are concerned I think "you pull it, you tank it" is a completely fair mindset for any tank. DPS aren't the ones who have to actually manage large pulls, so they don't get to make that call in any capacity.

Where Healers are concerned, my general stance is "If you pull it and bring it to me then I'll tank it, but you'd better be able to heal through it."

As a rule I'll generally go with whatever the Healer wants, since pull size impacts them the most; but they need to ask for bigger pulls and/or bring the enemies to me. If I'm Rescue pulled I'll just run back to where I was without picking up the adds.

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Being versatile and adaptable is not only preferable, but objectively better than all of that above.

Could you imagine any other game or sport or team venture where if a mistake is made, the leader of the team just abandoned the offending team member and let them suffer on their own?

- Baseball: You missed that catch. No one else will run for the ball; you go get it.
- Basketball: You didn't get that rebound. Well, now no one will pass to you, nor will anyone defend you.
- Flying an Airbus A380: Well, Billy, you really messed up by missing an item on the pre-flight checklist. Guess you get to fly solo to Bangkok.

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If the tank is a second or two late, you're dead. If the healer can't keep up with the added enemies for whatever reason, you're dead. If the healer throws a heal at you because you started getting hit, chances are that the pull will be pretty messy with enemies running everywhere. Early pull during a savage/ultimate, and that's half your health gone in a single auto-attack.

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these problems are exclusive to few dungeons as most mobs, even multiple, hit like a wet noodle in most dungeons due to inflated ilvl

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Originally Posted by Fyce

When I said that pulling is not the healer or DPS's job, it goes a bit more indepth that just saying "everyone can pull". It's that you're definitly not well equipped for that task, and that there are so much variables that you don't know about or don't consider that Tanks are, by far, the best suited to engage enemies first.

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i'm not saying they aren't, but a tank that only does single pulls past level 50 should honestly re-evaluate if they want to play the tank

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I recently had a Brayflox Longstop run with a tank having a lot of tankxiety. We were grouped with a NIN that was constantly pulling first, making each pull quite hard to deal with, not even mentionning the lack of AoE damage, or the fact that I was forced to stop DPSing as a healer to save their (not)sorry face. If was pretty stressfull and frustrating for the tank, and we probably lost more time trying to fix everything caused by the NIN than we gained with these pulls.
Let's just say that this experience didn't help with the tankxiety.

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should've kicked the NIN (or even the tank) once you realized that the tank had troubles with grabbing aggro away from him and that he's more trouble than he's worth
funnily enough, I had a brayflox run on NIN last week on my alt and the tank also had tankxiety and never really wanted to pull in the beginning of the dungeon and it was only when I showed him that a DPS like NIN can handle the pulls (thanks shade shift, second wind and bloodbath!), so could he and so he went on and started pulling more and more (and almost the whole area before the second boss!) till he stopped being so anxious about it

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You can pull as a healer/DPS. But these roles aren't designed to deal with the consequences of pulling.
And if you can't handle the consequences of pulling without putting the burden on someone else (the tank having to catch up, or the healer getting aggro for saving you), then simply don't do it.

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almost all the classes have either ok mitigation or self heals to be able to pull and survive for a bit, though, it's hard to die unless it's one of the usual dungeons with hard hitting mobs, i.e. stone vigil, some aurum vale mobs or the big enemies in bardam

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Originally Posted by Ath192

The DPS shaming the tanks suffer from the same ego complex thinking they get to decide how the dungeon will run because they want it faster. A tank knows how many CDs he has left and how well the healer is doing. If they’re barely coming out alive with all CDs used and the healer is struggling to keep up and not even dpsing(aggravating the issue) it may be reasonable for the tank to alternate single pulls while his cool downs reset. And it would be wrong of the DPS to take matters into their own hands and pull more mobs because he just wants faster and is willing to wipe the party over it.

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no lol, the dps' and healers just know that it takes a single, maybe two, AOEs from the tank to get all the aggro they "stole" from them back and that it's childish whining if they get upset when one of them dares to pulls an enemy before them, though tanks like this are thankfully rare