Is their a DPS job, thats perfect that way it is?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Naw, I don't agree. To be honest, I generally hate what people consider to be depth and as such, I don't value it and it doesn't enter into my equation. That the mch rotation doesn't evolve past 50 isn't a flaw to me, it's a perk because that means at 50 the kit feels complete to play and that makes content done at level 50 more fun.

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Which is funny because this has been MNK for pretty much all its lifespan besides the brief moment where TK MNK was a thing (God I miss it). People has been complaining ever since.

I do understand the value of a job being complete under 80, and I would want the devs to fix it 100%, but I don't think sacrificing job design at max level is the way to go for fixing the job design below level 80, there has to be another way. I still stand by having them implement the old state of jobs throughout the expansions. Reimplement HW MCH, Stormblood MNK, ARR Scholar, with all their skills and what not. That would take a lot of work to do, but I still think that would be the best way to do it.

Having jobs built on top of its core and becoming complex and evolving is still better job design than being stagnant, regressing back, or worse, taking out old skills to reimplement them later with a different name (Steel Peak/Tornado Kick, Englightenment/Howling Fist).

DRG and BLM are the only jobs I can confidently say are "finished" or most polished. As they're majorly similar to what they were in Stormblood, which back then both were already held in high esteem for their design and their only changes as of 5.X is some streamlining to make it smoother to play. (i.e. the removal of Heavy Thrust or making Blizzard spells cost 0 MP)

As someone who disagrees heavily with a lot of the directions taken with Shadowbringers in terms of job design, I have a lot to say on this matter. It's obviously impossible to say what mindset the dev team were in whilst deciding the job directions of this expansion, but I felt that they have gotten too cocky with leaning far into poorly implemented accessibility. Too many slots are wasted this expansion with skills that are just AoE/single target variants of already existing skills. I understand it's to make AoE rotations more involving and it may not seem like the biggest problem at face value, but we've seen what doing too much of that does to a job. (cough, Machinist) The tl;dr of this rant is basically, a majority of jobs in 5.X feel like they were designed for how they feel in dungeons first and foremost, with how they perform in other content mostly being an afterthought. Though I am aware that what I've said has already been said, these are my current feelings about the jobs that need the most work right now:

MCH - There are a lot of people that can give you a better educated opinion on why MCH is barren, boring and only feels impactful in dungeons. The job seems like SE should've made this rework far earlier instead of leaving it as a blank slate for all of Shadowbringers. In my opinion, it sort of captures the job design philosophy of 5.X as a microcosm. Too much focus on AoE, too many hit and forget skills that add nothing to the rotation, too easy and doesn't challenge the player enough at higher tiers of skill.
BRD - leaning too far into one identity that no one asked for left it with no identity at all. SE insists that it should be the middle ground of damage and support between DNC and MCH, but it does less damage than both and has near negligible impact with support despite having to work harder than its ranged siblings. Just bring back Foe's 4head.
MNK - Another job that has been talked to death. The most generous thing I can say about the job is that the rework made it possibly better to work with in the future since the devs can no longer lazily churn out Greased Lightning maintenance skills. Said rework has left it as a completely nothing job. Nothing about it is fulfilling and it doesn't even have its own job unique mechanic anymore. All Monks have ever done in the lifespan of the game, is wait. And we're still gonna have to wait. See you guys in 10 years when MNK finally becomes a job.
SMN - Just burn the whole job to the ground and start over. It's a cruel joke of what it used to be from Stormblood.

Honestly, I'm not really sure where there is to go with Black Mage without it being something that changes up the entire rotation (or perhaps expands the ice phase somehow). It's basically perfect right now.

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. Summoner hits like a truck and that’s why people play it. SE needs to take summoner back and build it from the ground up. I main summoner and I admit that I enjoy seeing myself mostly top dps but it’s a pretty complex job to play and if you mess up something especially in your 2 minute opener then your dps suffers. Really no recovery. I think egis should become cosmetic and demi primals need to take front and center. FFXVI seems to be focusing on summoners once again and I hope in 6.0 summoner finally gets the love and rework it so desperately needs.

There was a job that was perfect the way it was, MNK... well it was close, now it’s a joke. I see a lot of people trying to give SMN the same treatment, just stop, it plays great, and I’m not referencing the dmg output. It literally plays great at every level of content.

I’d say DNC NIN SMN BLM MCH would be at the top for me I’d put RDM up there but the aoe rotation this cycle is counterintuitive and clunky to me the way they made it backwards from the single target gauge builder.

Opposite end of the spectrum, SAM is horrible to play, it’s the poster child for button bloat.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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You should use it more--it's better than the alternative when you have longer movement. You should also not ignore Displacement.

These are part of RDM's skill expression, and knowing when to use and not use them is part of the way to differentiate between a 12k dps RDM and a 20k dps RDM.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Personally speaking, Summoner needs a complete rework top to bottom. As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Agreed with the Summoner rework but as has already been mentioned there is no good reason to be looking for Reprise to be removed, that's one of the better skills they've added to Red Mage c to help balance it's gauge and adds to it's already impressive mobility for a caster. Displacement is fantastic and should always be used over engagement for better potency and mobility as long as it's safe.

Tbh when it comes to BLM
Beside fluff such as
"Aoe fire3 for dungeon"
Trait [a][b][c] improving small things I'm not sure if there's much they could do.

So currently what could be considered BLM issue (and by issue i mean... Lol annoying thing about the job)

- Fire3 AoE alternative for dungeon (possibly Fire2 getting a trait upgrade)
- Fire1 and Blizz4 being a bit too underwhelming to the point a rotation without these spells is better (but not fun to play around ) something like

When doing B3, your next B4 deals x% more DMG, when doing F3, your next F1 deals y% more DMG (new animation plzzzz)

- B3 and Freeze grant an instant MP tick to avoid half filled mp bar

- manafont clipping reduction and perhaps a small CD reduction

-scath .... People say it could refresh the AF stance but tbh.. we have so many tools already... But sure why not

So in the end... adding something is tricky because anything would disturb the flow of the best designed job. And beside these fluff adjustment not sure what they could add.
A buff to lightning DMG could be nice too. it's the same mech since ARR

So this is just me but sometime I feel we lost a bit of the "I can't move fantasy" I wouldn't mind some sort of very very big spell only castable once per leyline. Something with a ludicrous casting time (like 5-6s).

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

As a RDM main, I like where the job is, but Reprise could be deleted and no one would notice the difference. I don't think I've ever used it in any of the content I've run. Engagement can stay though, I rarely ever bother with Displacement for obvious reasons.

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Everything you've just mentioned differentiates a good RDM from a bad one. A certain website has answered that question about you for me.

Anyway I'd say BLM, RDM and DRK probably have 3 of the best designs atm. MCH has been redesigned well, but is extremely boring.