After E8S, I promised myself I would play another role instead

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I've been listening to people say this for 5 years now. I want nothing more than for you and them to be right, but I'm still waiting.

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If the game has never felt fresh or different for you in those 5 years then maybe the problem isn't the game.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Based on their great SCH and AST changes so far, or all the dev feedback and insight they've been giving us, or the dedicated healer designers they have on the team working hard at this very moment?

...Oh wait.

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Based on them turning a terrible game(1.0) into a game that is year after year still winning awards. Base on the fact that I quit the game a few months after 2010 launch, and came back during 2.2 and still continue to play. Based on the fact that they're always working on making 14 a better product. Is it perfect? No. Have there been missteps, yes? Will they be addressed? If history and past trends is anything to go by, yes.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Based on them turning a terrible game(1.0) into a game that is year after year still winning awards. Base on the fact that I quit the game a few months after 2010 launch, and came back during 2.2 and still continue to play. Based on the fact that they're always working on making 14 a better product. Is it perfect? No. Have there been missteps, yes? Will they be addressed? If history and past trends is anything to go by, yes.

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We're not denying it's a great game overall. The devs do a good job and that's why I'm still a happily paying customer.

But they don't get everything right. Look at concepts like Verminion, which remains dead content to this day. Or the Diadem, which had to be reworked and still failed, followed by Eureka which again was met with heavy dislike and needed reworks. Or DRK which was in a poor state in Stormblood and only got reworked to bad WAR clone. WhM has spent several expansions unwanted at endgame and while it's viable now, still is the only class in the game which has clipping as part of gameplay.

Based on history, there's a good chance they might not have it fixed in 6.0. Also based on history, they don't rework entire roles once an expansion has launched. You also have to remember we've had no feedback from the devs on healers. None. Not even a "we hear you and we'll do our best in 6.0. Just more Piety on everything and SCH tweaks that display they're out of touch. Also keep in mind they literally do not have a heal designer right now and 6.0 is being worked on at this very moment.
So for all these reasons, as much as we love the devs, it's vital we keep giving our feedback and making ourselves heard so they realize this is something to prioritize.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

If the game has never felt fresh or different for you in those 5 years then maybe the problem isn't the game.

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We aren't talking about the game here, we're talking about the state of healers. It's been a downwards spiral for the past 5 years. For 5 years now their own community has offered feedback and solutions. For 5 years now the design has gone contrary to the feedback and how the community plays the role. Finally arriving at the current state.

So like I said. I want nothing more than for them to finally get healers right this time (hell, I'll settle for a small win and a simple change in the right direction at this point, one tiny step). But everyone's confidence in the past was misplaced, and I'm willing to bet yours today is as well. The reality is that SE haven't catered to career healers in those years and they most probably won't start now. The most recent changes to SCH (last patch) are a perfect example of this. If they really had a decent philosophy for healer gameplay in 6.0 they wouldn't push a backward change like the one they just made.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

We're not denying it's a great game overall. The devs do a good job and that's why I'm still a happily paying customer.

But they don't get everything right. Look at concepts like Verminion, which remains dead content to this day. Or the Diadem, which had to be reworked and still failed, followed by Eureka which again was met with heavy dislike and needed reworks. Or DRK which was in a poor state in Stormblood and only got reworked to bad WAR clone. WhM has spent several expansions unwanted at endgame and while it's viable now, still is the only class in the game which has clipping as part of gameplay.

Based on history, there's a good chance they might not have it fixed in 6.0. Also based on history, they don't rework entire roles once an expansion has launched. You also have to remember we've had no feedback from the devs on healers. None. Not even a "we hear you and we'll do our best in 6.0. Just more Piety on everything and SCH tweaks that display they're out of touch. Also keep in mind they literally do not have a heal designer right now and 6.0 is being worked on at this very moment.
So for all these reasons, as much as we love the devs, it's vital we keep giving our feedback and making ourselves heard so they realize this is something to prioritize.

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I think some of what you said is subjective. Like Diadem rework. The gathering instance that is diadem now is actually pretty chill and fun. But we wen't through 2 iterations if count the original before we got what we have now. Although its very focused content which is either leveling your gathering classes or getting materials for Ishgard crafting. Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle. Pretty sure world first for Ultimate content was with a DRK for Ultima and Bahamut. Also the way you talk about WHM as if it was never viable class is silly. All classes are and have always been viable in this game, but you are correct to say that some classes are more desirable then others.

A part of the problem is that message boards and chatroom tend to be echo chambers for people of specific kinds of opinions so it can be hard to gauge actual reality and perception when people are being extreme and irrational with their critique of gameplay elements. However they do seem to notice when certain issues reach a fever pitch if you will. Look at monk. The stagnation of it finally made it to their ears and they've stated there will be big changes in the future. I do think you make a salient point though that they haven't even made a statement as to possible changes for healers. I'm not saying feedback is wrong, but I don't think hysteria on message boards is an efficient way of conveying the message.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle.

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If we are talking about performance then yes, DRK is not terrible. But I'm pretty sure we're talking about DRK design-wise, the gameplay "feel" if you will, which is always going to be compared to previous iterations or other jobs within the same category and in that case ShB DRK is absolutely terrible, it is just a ctrl+c -> ctrl+v of warrior, it neither resembles any of it's previous iterations nor does it bring anything new and interesting to the table.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

I think some of what you said is subjective. Like Diadem rework. The gathering instance that is diadem now is actually pretty chill and fun. But we wen't through 2 iterations if count the original before we got what we have now. Although its very focused content which is either leveling your gathering classes or getting materials for Ishgard crafting. Drk also being terrible is hyperbole as the tanks have all been very close in performance and playstyle. Pretty sure world first for Ultimate content was with a DRK for Ultima and Bahamut. Also the way you talk about WHM as if it was never viable class is silly. All classes are and have always been viable in this game, but you are correct to say that some classes are more desirable then others.

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Seriously? We're still bringing up the World First UCoB clear? One player enjoying Dark Knight doesn't negate the massive vocal criticism it received—enough the devs overhauled the job despite said clear. That overhaul led to further criticism because what they landed on is essentially Edgy Warrior. As for White Mage, no one is arguing about its viability but rather it's desirability. Ask any White Mage player just how hard it was finding a static that didn't subsequent ask if you'd switch to Astro after prog. Why? Because Astro was objectively better at nearly everything by 4.3. Not only did it have comparable (or superior) healer tools but offered buffs White Mage couldn't. There was simply no reason to play White Mage much in the same way Black Mage, Samurai and Monk all suffered. They were all inferior to their respectively counterparts.

You mention Diadem but it took three separate attempts for them to land on an decent alternative. That isn't what I call a ringing endorsement considering the lofty expectations they had for Daidem's original concept.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

A part of the problem is that message boards and chatroom tend to be echo chambers for people of specific kinds of opinions so it can be hard to gauge actual reality and perception when people are being extreme and irrational with their critique of gameplay elements. However they do seem to notice when certain issues reach a fever pitch if you will. Look at monk. The stagnation of it finally made it to their ears and they've stated there will be big changes in the future. I do think you make a salient point though that they haven't even made a statement as to possible changes for healers. I'm not saying feedback is wrong, but I don't think hysteria on message boards is an efficient way of conveying the message.

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Let's look at Monk. It took them four years to finally make changes the community had been asking for. In fact, they notoriously said Monk was the job they were "most proud of" during the Shadowbringers media tour. This despite taking literally none of the feedback offered. Monks complained at length over the slow down of RoH; that they had too many GL related abilities to either maintain or drop their stacks, and they had no means of attacking when forced to disengage. Monk's overhaul came due to the playerbase being so fed up with their feedback getting ignored, they stopped playing the Monk. In essence, they forced the dev team to listen. If anything, that only highlights EaMett and Liam's points. The dev team can be incredibly stubborn when it comes to feedback in spite of them constantly asking for it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Seriously? We're still bringing up the World First UCoB clear? One player enjoying Dark Knight doesn't negate the massive vocal criticism it received—enough the devs overhauled the job despite said clear.

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Gameplay. They overhauled gameplay.

There's a shockingly common tendency among players to say "weak" when they mean "I don't like how it plays." Maybe they just think saying "Weak" is more likely to get it changed than "I don't like it", but the reason World First picks get brought up isn't to address gameplay issues.

Its to address the claims of a job being weak.

And yes.

Dark Knight, during Stormblood, was widely being called weak.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark Knight, during Stormblood, was widely being called weak.

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Which isn't exactly true either. It was always either roughly on par with PLD's dps or above PLD in most cases, sometimes even reaching or beating warrior's dps. It wasn't weak, it just required more effort than warrior did...and it should've had some form of party utility that wasn't just single target.