How many mistakes are too many?

I do not mind personal mistakes all that much unless they cause several deaths or a wipe.
What i severely dislike is when a party is listed as "last phase practice" or "kill party" or something along those lines in PF and someone joins without clear understanding how to do the very first phase and wastes everyone's time. Those would get a swift kick from me.

The thing I don't understand is why all the players with very high skill expectations haven't done what such players do in every other game- join an FC dedicated to high end content. I've never raided heroic content or high M+ in WoW with people outside my guilds, and I'm pretty midcore- a hardcore player with high expectations really should save themselves the stress by being part of a top end FC instead of pugging savage+ content.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

The thing I don't understand is why all the players with very high skill expectations haven't done what such players do in every other game- join an FC dedicated to high end content. I've never raided heroic content or high M+ in WoW with people outside my guilds, and I'm pretty midcore- a hardcore player with high expectations really should save themselves the stress by being part of a top end FC instead of pugging savage+ content.

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Because you really don't join FCs to raid in this game. Pretty much anything to do with endgame content is done with a static that is separate from whatever FC you're in, there isn't really enough high end content that it would even make sense to create an entire "guild" for it.

But just like in all other games people sometimes can't or don't want to adhere to a fixed time schedule and instead decide to pug the fights in party finder. It works fine for the most part but occasionally suffers from the same issues as pretty much everything else involving completely random people, they have different strats, levels of skills or experience and sometimes can't even be bothered to read a description.

That sounds like a choice- and if you're making a choice to pug you should realize you're making a pug. Especially for the people who seem to be regularly frustrated by pugs- random players are consistently bad in just about every game, it's more surprising that pugs are good enough here to do savage content- I wouldn't trust pugs in other MMOs to be able to handle it.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

The thing I don't understand is why all the players with very high skill expectations haven't done what such players do in every other game- join an FC dedicated to high end content. I've never raided heroic content or high M+ in WoW with people outside my guilds, and I'm pretty midcore- a hardcore player with high expectations really should save themselves the stress by being part of a top end FC instead of pugging savage+ content.

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Some are already a part of HC FC or a static, but they still join PF on their alts. It's good because:
- They help fill PF.
- They help other players get their clear.
- They get to experiment with other jobs/roles and get even better at the game.
You can find a lot of streamers doing this.

Another reason is that they may not have a lot of free time, or they may work in shifts, and can't find an FC or a static that fits their needs.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Some are already a part of HC FC or a static, but they still join PF on their alts. It's good because:
- They help fill PF.
- They help other players get their clear.
- They get to experiment with other jobs/roles and get even better at the game.
You can find a lot of streamers doing this.

Another reason is that they may not have a lot of free time, or they may work in shifts, and can't find an FC or a static that fits their needs.

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To add to that, actual hardcore FC will have some rediculous expectations of their members, I've heard of some checking your DPS every so ften and if you arent in their range, boop thats it for you buddy. Some people just don't have the desire to commit like that, but my PERSONAL experience is that you get leagues better playing with unpredictable randos, rather than doing content with nearly perfect players. It makes the content even more difficult, but you walk out of it much more capable, if you're trying to improve.

It also isn't that surprising that pugs can clear savage. The way fights are designed in this game you don't need that much communication, everyone has a few mechanics targeting them specifically and simply needs to execute those, you can't skip mechanics anymore so they always happen in the same order and most of them even target the same people. Combine that with the relatively little time you have to invest into raiding if everything goes well and you can easily clear the fight with a bunch of skilled randoms.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

To add to that, actual hardcore FC will have some rediculous expectations of their members, I've heard of some checking your DPS every so ften and if you arent in their range, boop thats it for you buddy. Some people just don't have the desire to commit like that, but my PERSONAL experience is that you get leagues better playing with unpredictable randos, rather than doing content with nearly perfect players. It makes the content even more difficult, but you walk out of it much more capable, if you're trying to improve.

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The people checking your dps are mostly parse groups and for those it's obvious that they'd do so since that is their party's goal, getting high dps parses/ speedkills.
Or world first statics but even there it makes sense since they go into the raid with only crafted gear and everyone needs to push their job to the limit.

Dps in your average savage party only becomes an issue if you constantly wipe to the boss' enrage even when nobody in the party dies to mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The people checking your dps are mostly parse groups and for those it's obvious that they'd do so since that is their party's goal, getting high dps parses/ speedkills.
Or world first statics but even there it makes sense since they go into the raid with only crafted gear and everyone needs to push their job to the limit.

Dps in your average savage party only becomes an issue if you constantly wipe to the boss' enrage even when nobody in the party dies to mechanics.

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It wasnt a criticism or complaint about the FC doing that, if that is what they're all about that is how it is. What I meant was that some people dont have the desire to join/commit to these groups(had recruited some people in my FC who talked about these stories, when I was running an FC) if that is their forte. They're absolutely allowed to set rules for being in their company if thats what they want to do I'm not judging, just stating that it is a reality in some FC, which some people may not want to engage in, as they shouldnt if that is not their thing.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

The thing I don't understand is why all the players with very high skill expectations haven't done what such players do in every other game- join an FC dedicated to high end content. I've never raided heroic content or high M+ in WoW with people outside my guilds, and I'm pretty midcore- a hardcore player with high expectations really should save themselves the stress by being part of a top end FC instead of pugging savage+ content.

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1. As far as I know, there is no reward for completing a high-end duty as part of a free company.
2. As far as I know, there is no high-end duty preparation needed that requires the resource that only a free company can do.
3. There is no restriction on forming cross-world group.
4. Most high-end duty party size is small enough to not incentivize forming a free company for unless you just want to be in a small FC that you do high-end duty with.
5. There may not be enough free company with that type of focus given a presumably more casual player base.
6. Other reasons: not wanting to be in a free company just to do high-end duties, etc.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

The thing I don't understand is why all the players with very high skill expectations haven't done what such players do in every other game- join an FC dedicated to high end content. I've never raided heroic content or high M+ in WoW with people outside my guilds, and I'm pretty midcore- a hardcore player with high expectations really should save themselves the stress by being part of a top end FC instead of pugging savage+ content.

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In ffxi we had a static in our ls, the same group of us for nearly a decade, ran content multiple times a week, building relics and mythics, farming NMs and BCNMs for rare loot, popping sky gods, etc. But there is a big difference between ffxiv and other mmos. In ffxiv, the content comes out, you clear it, maybe do it a few other times for drops and then take a 2 month break until the next patch drops, and you repeat.

ffxiv simply cannot sustain this sort of guild type because there is not enough content of any kind that takes actual dedication for the long term. There are no long term goals. This game simply has nothing to offer the real hardcore raid guilds, which is why they are so few and far between in ffxiv and pugging is king. Often these groups who raid together, also raid together in other games that have those long term goals, that takes more dedication that a week or two, 4 times a year.