How many mistakes are too many?

[Liam_Harper]

I've been curious on the general community opinion on this. How many mistakes is it fair to make before you're genuinely holding the group back and should actually leave.

From experience, even "kick = mistake" groups don't always kick. Kicking someone isn't pleasant and many players will simply leave or disband to avoid doing so, or even suggesting to do so.
I don't pretend to be a good player myself. I've cleared this Savage tier, yet I make mistakes fairly often on much easier content that I shouldn't. In these cases if it happens 2-3 time without improvement I generally try to do the fair thing and drop group for a better player.

I don't apply my own rules to others (I'm very patient in instances), but not everyone feels the same so I try to respect others time. Obviously there's some variance for farm/practice, but how do others feel on this? Is there a point where you go from friendly tolerance to secretly wishing the player would do the decent thing and stop holding the team back? If a player is holding a team back and leaves or is kicked, should they try again in a new group to learn, or move to easier content to brush up first rather than risk wasting another 7 players time?

[Jirah]

If its very consistent I would call them out, people tend to have issues with asking for help especially if its a early phase mech we mastered but just need a refresher. As long as they are asking for help and reassurance its not grounds for kicking, I tend to not kick unless the whole party agrees or they're being silent while dragging the party down. Speak up!

[Leareaux]

Obviously depends on the party mentality. For certain clear parties I've made it clear that certain amount of mech knowledge is required. If I see someone struggling with a mechanic I'll ask them if they understand what's going on. If they fail again I'll let them know I have to replace if it happens again. If i had to put a number to it, I'd say 3 fails on the same mechanic is a hard replace for me.

[ItMe]

Depends on what the mistakes are.
If someone is flubbing their opener, whatever.
If someone botches a mechanic? See if you can't roll with it.
If someone wipes the group? If we hit enrage with a surprising amount of HP left on the boss? Start a conversation about what happened.

[linayar]

How many mistakes is it fair to make before you're genuinely holding the group back and should actually leave.

Are you asking from the perspective of the person making mistakes? If so, then here's what I think:

If that person is willing to learn but is struggling with a fight, leaving doesn't make that person learn and that person will still need to struggle with the fight with another group. So if the party is willing to have that person, then that person should stay rather than simply jump from group to group that may have different ideas on how to do the fight.

If it's from the perspective of the party, then it's up to the party to communicate expectations. If it's a farm party and not a learning party, then there's no reason to put up with the struggling player, but they can simply communicate with that player and allow that person to be more self-aware and leave on their own instead of kicking them right away.

[Liam_Harper]

Cheers, good perspectives here. As expected, it varies with both the player and the type of content but for players who prefer not to spend their time wiping to mistakes, 2-3 mistakes that lead to a death or wipe seems to be a good strike rule. In this case I still wonder is it best to simply leave yourself, to wait for the party to kick you, or to offer to leave. If you simply drop, you might have left a patient group who's now down a player, but if you hang around waiting for a kick you might cause 3 decent players to drop to avoid conflict and now everyone loses out.

If that person is willing to learn but is struggling with a fight, leaving doesn't make that person learn and that person will still need to struggle with the fight with another group. So if the party is willing to have that person, then that person should stay rather than simply jump from group to group that may have different ideas on how to do the fight.

In theory I'd agree. In practice I had to drop my first run in SoS normal and 3 SoS EX practice groups barely into P1, but still cleared it comfortably multiple times within the next few days. It feels bad but I guess maybe the drop/kick is a motivation to do better.
My own issue is that I know mechanics or can pick them up if explained, I know the theory of my class and if I'm on form I push reasonable (but not amazing) damage. But the first runs are always rough and some days I just brain-derp. Like when I tried AST in e5s recently, I forgot orbs twice and died even though I know that fight inside out and DF in e8s was my bane for weeks for no reason.

From a party perspective, I feel off days happen. I think stressing over mistakes too much leads to a crash in performance anyway and if I lead a group I prefer it's chill. I'm usually in groups for the social experience and as long as people are trying, open to advice and not trolling that's all I'd ask. But that's not a playstyle I'd force on others or expect them to share. So I like to be open to all perspectives.

[linayar]

In theory I'd agree. In practice I had to drop my first run in SoS normal and 3 SoS EX practice groups barely into P1, but still cleared it comfortably multiple times within the next few days. It feels bad but I guess maybe the drop/kick is a motivation to do better.
My own issue is that I know mechanics or can pick them up if explained, I know the theory of my class and if I'm on form I push reasonable (but not amazing) damage. But the first runs are always rough and some days I just brain-derp. Like when I tried AST in e5s recently, I forgot orbs twice and died even though I know that fight inside out and DF in e8s was my bane for weeks for no reason.

I'm not sure if that has to do with the drop/kick or because it's just another day. People have off days and anytime you join a random group, all the randomness for each person in the group plays a factor.

From a party perspective, I feel off days happen. I think stressing over mistakes too much leads to a crash in performance anyway and if I lead a group I prefer it's chill. I'm usually in groups for the social experience and as long as people are trying, open to advice and not trolling that's all I'd ask. But that's not a playstyle I'd force on others or expect them to share. So I like to be open to all perspectives.

Sure, and again, it's up to the party to give out and enforce "reasonable" expectations. But as long as people do not have any misgivings about the current group, then it's not wrong to continue.

[Canadane]

I think most people understand mistakes happen.
Even on those "mistake = kick" groups, there is such things as understandable mistakes that players themselves can see them doing. One of those "haha yeah we've all been there" types of deals.
Those "mistakes = kick" descriptions are basically there to scare off the uninitiated, to help gather just people who know their rotation properly, and know the mechanics of the fight. There are times when you cannot, or don't want to use the [Duty Complete] filter, but you're ready for the clear yourself. A mention of a "Clear party" is basically just equivalent to a late phase learning party. Sometimes you need to put the foot down and put on your big boy raiding pants and get it over with. You may not want to deal with someone who is still much earlier in learning than you.

Of course Raid Finder has all these matchmaking options but NA groups never use that do we?

[ADVSS]

I think most people understand mistakes happen.
Even on those "mistake = kick" groups, there is such things as understandable mistakes that players themselves can see them doing. One of those "haha yeah we've all been there" types of deals.
Those "mistakes = kick" descriptions are basically there to scare off the uninitiated, to help gather just people who know their rotation properly, and know the mechanics of the fight. There are times when you cannot, or don't want to use the [Duty Complete] filter, but you're ready for the clear yourself. A mention of a "Clear party" is basically just equivalent to a late phase learning party. Sometimes you need to put the foot down and put on your big boy raiding pants and get it over with. You may not want to deal with someone who is still much earlier in learning than you.

Of course Raid Finder has all these matchmaking options but NA groups never use that do we?

Heck no, we believe DF is for learning and PF is for clearing! If I'm accurate I believe the JP community is pretty much on the oppositte with that mentality.

[Limonia]

In casual content I don't really care if others do mistakes, because I'm very bad at explaining things. I only do it when I know how to phrase it right. If I don't know how to say it I hope others will. If someone repeatedly wipes the group I just secretly wish someone is good enough to explain it if I can't or just makes a votekick/abandon. Or I'll leave.

In harder content I try to explain things the best I can, but most times others are more willing to than in casual content anyway.
I remember when I was in a Memoria Miseria clear party a DPS wiped us repeatedly because he always went to the wrong marker. He felt so bad and embarrassed, but I encouraged him to stay and switch markers with him, and eventually we cleared it.

I also remember when I practiced Seiryu ex and was messing up the mechanic where the healers have two stack markers. I wiped us like three or four times in a row. I also felt really, really bad for it. I was so happy that my party was understanding, explaining it slowly to me again. My problem wasn't that I didn't understand the mechanic, but I just forgot when it happened. But talking about it made my brain remember it every time from then on.

But I've had so many people leave after like 2 mistakes in a learning group. I think you can't just generally say how many mistakes are too much. I'm very patient unless the player doesn’t even try at all. Others are not. Maybe something in between is the right way?