Everything wrong with 5.3 AST sleeve draw [Translated JP duplicate thread]

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If you mean to insinuate raiders weren't complaining, you need only venture into The Balance. You preferring old Sleeve Draw doesn't mean it hasn't been viewed as a divisive ability.

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If this was your intention I misparsed your English and I apologize. Some people were complaining, true. Reasons for those complaints were highly subjective.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

And now, some people are complaining about the changes to SD. Reasons for those complaints are highly subjective.

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I never denied this.

Sooo, even though I am a Scholar main i need to point out something that has been brought up a few times for astro, the whole waiting 30 seconds for draw thing... You do realize that the reason sch cant get aetherflow before combat was due to that right? This change will likely in the not so distant future make it so you wont be able to draw outside of combat. I hope you all are excited for that...

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Originally Posted by Canubirt

Sooo, even though I am a Scholar main i need to point out something that has been brought up a few times for astro, the whole waiting 30 seconds for draw thing... You do realize that the reason sch cant get aetherflow before combat was due to that right? This change will likely in the not so distant future make it so you wont be able to draw outside of combat. I hope you all are excited for that...

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Aetherflow was upwards of 45 sec to a minute tho. with most pull timers being used around 15-20 seconds you are potentially waiting less time on the draws then you are on aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Aetherflow was upwards of 45 sec to a minute tho. with most pull timers being used around 15-20 seconds you are potentially waiting less time on the draws then you are on aetherflow.

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That is entirely true, a minute (40 seconds with most people doing 20 second timer) wait (which was mainly for summoner, scholar didnt really care even though it was nice) was complained about for raiding. Waiting was complained about in general. We now have a setup of a class that is asking a raid to keyword here WAIT till a cooldown comes off so they can use it twice at the start of a fight. Aether was 1 minute, draw is 30 seconds, both are causing raids to wait. Doesnt matter if there is a raid timer countdown. Square-enix typically looks at a fight and says everyone should be good at the start without any waiting. So yes, aetherflow was an issue for raids, draw is now an issue as well no matter how much you sugarcoat it.

PS: I hope that this doesnt occur to astro's cause its terrible for scholars not being able to use a key ability outside of combat. Really wish they would revert that change.

Ya since sch had the quickened aetherflow trait so it really wasn't that much of a big deal for them. Smn, however, did need that long 30 seconds cause they didn't have trait which was instead the enhanced enkindle back then. I remember al the ucob pulls after we got to golden where we had to wait for the cd on our smn's aetherflow.

THat being said, as long as it's a coordinated effort, it's not too bad but that's still asking a lot from pf groups.

Ik people are harping on Ast for the now seemingly forced waiting, but if you are caring about full optimisation then your already waiting 30 secs for Dnc, most groups won't do it because it is such a pitiful gain that it isn't worth it but technically Dnc was antithesis to Sch's aetherflow long before this patch happened, it is just Ast's Divination is more valued, but just wanted to point out it isn't a new thing with Ast that runs contrary to why Aetherflow was restricted the way it was.

Hiz I am the kind of player this thread is targeting.
I am a self described min maxxer, who spent a number of years contributing theory crafting to multiple popular guide sites when I was raiding in WoW.
I actively keep myself in the top ranks of 2 different FPS, and held glad in WoW, and stayed in the top ranks of GW2 Spvp (they changed the rank names since I played last) for a quite litterally years.
I don't have the free time to theory craft anymore, but I still play with the same mindset, I love having a variety of tools at my disposal that give me a ton of options to optimize, I love finding uses for niche skills, I love highly complex and high APM gameplay.
While I agree that the dumbing down of jobs across the board hurts the game far more than it helps it, I do not think the old Sleeve Draw is worth bringing back. I did not find it remotely stressful to assign the cards it gave me, but that doesn't make it a well designed ability.

People who are highly competitive in games, people who enjoy squeezing the most of out a game, and enjoy complex engaging gameplay generally still want things to have a flow.
The old Sleeve Draw, was clunky, it wasn't difficult to use in my personal experience, but it was awkward which is more important.
The new Sleeve Draw is an improvement, its still not a great skill, it can definitely be improved, and it shows very clearly that the job designers have a very clear disconnect with how their players actually use skills.
But it is still better then what we had.

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Originally Posted by Angelic_Dropout

While I agree that the dumbing down of jobs across the board hurts the game far more than it helps it, I do not think the old Sleeve Draw is worth bringing back. I did not find it remotely stressful to assign the cards it gave me, but that doesn't make it a well designed ability.

People who are highly competitive in games, people who enjoy squeezing the most of out a game, and enjoy complex engaging gameplay generally still want things to have a flow.
The old Sleeve Draw, was clunky, it wasn't difficult to use in my personal experience, but it was awkward which is more important.
The new Sleeve Draw is an improvement, its still not a great skill, it can definitely be improved, and it shows very clearly that the job designers have a very clear disconnect with how their players actually use skills.
But it is still better then what we had.

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I am failing to understand. I apologize for my low level of English proficiency, but I find it difficult to parse your intentions when you employ words like "flow", "clunky" and "awkward" without really saying what exactly you are referring to. In our original post (and a few subsequent posts of my own) I feel we concretely laid out what exactly was our problem with this new iteration of SD. May I request you do the same?

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Ik people are harping on Ast for the now seemingly forced waiting, but if you are caring about full optimisation then your already waiting 30 secs for Dnc, most groups won't do it because it is such a pitiful gain that it isn't worth it but technically Dnc was antithesis to Sch's aetherflow long before this patch happened, it is just Ast's Divination is more valued, but just wanted to point out it isn't a new thing with Ast that runs contrary to why Aetherflow was restricted the way it was.

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Ok sure, I think myself and a few others have clarified what exactly the problem is on this matter, but I will give it here again.

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Originally Posted by hiz

We also now need to wait prepull for Draw recast in order to use Divination for opener, which feels bad in PF context.

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Originally Posted by owolett

Regardless you never HAD to wait 30s before the pull - you always had AT LEAST 4 cards, now if you want a Divination in the opener you have to wait.

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For DNC, I don't play the job myself but as far as I am aware precasting or not precasting Standard Finish has no effect whatsoever on its rotation nor its party buffs (as you have mentioned yourself already). The issue here is that for AST it is physically impossible to cast Divination without waiting prepull, unlike DNC that is unaffected rotation-wise whether they precast Standard Finish or not.