The potential problem with low level Roulettes in 6.0

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Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

Let higher-level players keep their skills in low level content.

There are a couple of problems with that....

2. You faceroll even harder through said content.

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That's not necessarily the case. The primary imbalancing factor is stats and not skills. Level 15 skills at level 80 stats are stronger than level 80 skills at level 15 stats.

All that's needed to balance high level skills is a damage/healer multplier, which the game already has plenty of (weakness, damage down, etc). The value would change for every level but SE already knows roughly what the value is needed at each level because SE has been able to balance boss health for the entire game.

If you're worried about special effect skills (example Benediction) then just give them sync traits, so for example a WHM below level 50 only gets 50% heal (or whatever number) out of Bene.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

That's not necessarily the case. The primary imbalancing factor is stats and not skills. Level 15 skills at level 80 stats are stronger than level 80 skills at level 15 stats.

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It absolutely is the case.
Not only do jobs gain access to more potent skills at higher levels, but they also gain more oGCDs to weave between their GCDs, increasing their APM ad overall DPS, plus they gain extra potency by way of traits like Main and Mend.

Taking Monk and it's AoE rotation as an example for DPS against 3 targets. And lets completely ignore Traits in this example as well, because I suppose you could say "don't sync traits"

Level 15: you have no AoE, your DPS is limited to your basic single target rotation. [Avg potency 206 per GCD]
Level 18: you gain a skill that gives you a 10% damage buff that should ideally be up constantly. [227 per GCD]
Level 26: your first AoE move [297]
Level 30: your second AoE move [341]
Level 35: you get an oGCD in Shoulder tackle that adds to your DPS [365]
Level 40: Fists of Fire, another permanent 10% damage buff [398]
Level 45: you final AoE skill [446]
Level 50: Perfect Balance (I'm not entirely sure how impactful this will be to the AoE rotation, but at the very least it gives an extra 30 potency each time you substitute Arm of the Destroyer, but I won't add this because it's not that big, maybe increases these numbers by 5?)
Level 56: Elixer Field, this oGCD makes a big difference. [526]
Level 68: Riddle of Fire, 25% buff that's up 22% of the time, slightly more than a permanent 5% damage buff. [548]
Level 70 + 74: Brotherhood and Enlightenment, I include these together because Brotherhood is what makes Enlightenment a reliable oGCD to use in the rotation. A little RNG here so this will have to be a rough guess, but typically you get to use it at least twice in each Brotherhood cycle so... [avg potency per GCD 579]

A level 15 Monk rotation is doing only a third of the potency of a level 80 Monk rotation, without taking any stat differences or traits into account. This could be exactly the same person, simply playing differently, using only their level 15 skills or their full level 80 kit.

(Also, this was using very rough 'per GCD' calculations, basically 'per 2.5-3 seconds'. If I were to do this properly and work out per second potencies, I'd also have to factor in Greased Lightning, which would create an even bigger disparity as it was skew it from ~3s to ~2s as more GL stacks become available)

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Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

- Level squish
A ton of work as well. A lot of rewards and systems would need adjustments :/

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I believe this is the most likely option.
If I'm not mistaken there was suggestion that 6.0 could come with a level squish. It might have just been them 'thinking out loud' but they are thinking about it.

For one thing, once a new expansion drops, there's no reason whatsoever for the previous patch content gear to have such a huge ilvl range. From the end of Heavensward to the start of Stormblood for example is a whopping 120 ilvl difference.

So fixing that, plus a slightly better skill distribution, would be ideal.

I would really like to see the old dungeons get a quick once over to see where they can make small fixes. They avoid improving old content, so they can focus on making new stuff, and I get that. Though like, I am talking maybe a team of <10 people given a few months to go over the ARR stuff. Do little stuff like make some of the old stuff more fun where there's clear and easy ways to improve it. An example, make it so the three bosses of Copperbell are actually something the party can engage with, and do something about the enemies resetting a bit too aggressively. Similarly, add markers they developed later to old content where they are relevant, like stack markers in Crystal Tower.

You actually can't just keep speeding forward with big decade long persistent projects. Seems like successful MMOs get a renewal at some point, either successfully (WoW) or unsuccessfully (RO). I think FFXIV kind of gets it and I like they are at least touching up the MSQ to be a bit smoother. I hope it means the team got a budget to get a team to tackle this kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I believe this is the most likely option....

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Uuh they mentioned it? I must have missed that :D But I agree, a combination of those two things plus appropriate adjustments to the traits (to avoid having people running around with 1000-1500 potency skills in low level dungeons for example... :D) could, in theorie, make thinks much more fun for new and old players :3

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

I would really like to see the old dungeons get a quick once over to see where they can make small fixes. They avoid improving old content, so they can focus on making new stuff, and I get that....

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I would be happy and totally fine with little touch ups like that :D Adding a few little mechanics here and there. Nothing too big. But I have absolutly no educated knowledge when it comes to programming. So I don't know if thats a realistic wish of mine or if that would be too much work compared to the payoff. I mean ff14 is still growing like crazy! :D But maybe it would grow even more with some adjustments like that :3 But that is just speculation :D And I don't personally know the newcomer-experience at the moment :3 I think I joined...shortly after the release of Stormblood? It's been while...i just remember that i didn't even mind the 100-quest-marathon...I just had a blast with the game :D

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

It absolutely is the case.
Not only do jobs gain access to more potent skills at higher levels, but they also gain more oGCDs to weave between their GCDs, increasing their APM ad overall DPS, plus they gain extra potency by way of traits like Main and Mend.

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Yes, but stats matter a lot more. I didn't say that skill don't matter at all, but they are far less significant than stats.

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A level 15 Monk rotation is doing only a third of the potency of a level 80 Monk rotation, without taking any stat differences or traits into account. This could be exactly the same person, simply playing differently, using only their level 15 skills or their full level 80 kit.

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This is why a damage multiplier is needed. To validate what I said about stats mattering a lot more though, a level 15 class will do around 100 damage per hit (I don't have an exact number). A Level 80 MNK will auto attack for something like 8000 on average according to fflogs. Using your estimate, let's multiply the level 15 MNK attack by 5 (a big over estimate) to make up for the difference in potency. You only get 500. Stats matter more than skills. To fix this, we just need to multiply the level 80 MNK's overall DPS by some number to bring it in line with the level 15's. OGCD's and average potency don't cause any issues.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Yes, but stats matter a lot more. I didn't say that skill don't matter at all, but they are far less significant than stats.


This is why a damage multiplier is needed. To validate what I said about stats mattering a lot more though, a level 15 class will do around 100 damage per hit (I don't have an exact number). A Level 80 MNK will auto attack for something like 8000 on average according to fflogs. Using your estimate, let's multiply the level 15 MNK attack by 5 (a big over estimate) to make up for the difference in potency. You only get 500. Stats matter more than skills. To fix this, we just need to multiply the level 80 MNK's overall DPS by some number to bring it in line with the level 15's. OGCD's and average potency don't cause any issues.

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The point is your "you just need to multiply..." misses the point.
Even if you did this, a level 80 rotation would still do three times the damage of a level 15 rotation, which is still way too much.
You can't just add another x0.33 multiplier to make up for this as:
A. Not all jobs rotations will have the same disparity, so that extra multiplier will not fit all.
B. We then get the problem of a level 80 character needing to pull off a level 80 rotation flawlessly in order to keep up with the single button spam of a level 15 character.

tbh id love it if they gave the full tool kit from 1-50, have all jobs start a 1, and have 51+ be traits that increase potency, change the skill animation. Also making stuff like cure 1 to be cure 2 at 30 would be great. i have a hard time mapping cure 1 and cure 2 on mu hotbar to use comfortable. im constantly moving them when i get a dungeon with cure 1 or cure 2.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The point is your "you just need to multiply..." misses the point.
Even if you did this, a level 80 rotation would still do three times the damage of a level 15 rotation, which is still way too much.

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That doesn't make any sense. Each level's DPS value is a number. Compare those numbers and you get a ratio. It's pretty easy to make them equivalent. If you multiply the level 80 rotation by 0, the level 15 rotation is a lot stronger. No matter how big the high level DPS value is, it can always be made equal to or less than the low level one.

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You can't just add another x0.33 multiplier to make up for this as:
A. Not all jobs rotations will have the same disparity, so that extra multiplier will not fit all.

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Will all jobs have the exact same multiplier? No, but using the same one for all jobs in a role is pretty reasonable. If that didn't work it would mean that classes were very imbalanced. Also keep in mind that in leveling content perfect equality isn't a requirement. As things are now, in a given dungeon one class might have AoE while another doesn't. One player might have role skills while another doesn't as these don't get synced. A common multiplier for all DPS, all healer, and all tanks is perfectly reasonable.

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B. We then get the problem of a level 80 character needing to pull off a level 80 rotation flawlessly in order to keep up with the single button spam of a level 15 character.

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Level 15 rotations aren't foolproof. An ice mage does about 50% of the damage a proper BLM would do. If someone at level 15 just mindlessly mashed their ranged attack as a melee (which has happened) they are also going to do about half of their damage. You see something similar when a class is low enough to lose their AoE. And of course whether you level sync or keep skills could be a toggle. Lazy players, which are rare enough, won't be a bigger problem in a dungeon with stat sync vs level sync. Poor or new players might actually perform better since they won't have to deal with constantly losing out on new skills and be able to practice with their full ability set every time they enter a dungeon.

All jobs should have their AOE combos before lvl 50, especially tanks.