Thread: The potential problem with low level Roulettes in 6.0

Hello there! First of all...I love this game. That's why I would like to hear some ideas of you guys on how and if this should/could be fixed/improved.
Low level content is not exactly fun and i fear that especially the level 50 stuff and below will become an absolute chore to do when 6.0 comes out (when max. level likely will be 90). And there is the problem with new players. I witnessed a lot of people quitting because the combat is so slow at the start and only really gets starting at lvl. 60+.
BUT this is not me complaining to the devs or being annoyed at them. Not at all. Because I fear there is not an easy solution or at least i can't propose one :/ What would be the best solution/improvement for these problems? I had a couple of approaches in my mind but none of them are perfect or easy to execute:

- Let higher-level players keep their skills in low level content.

There are a couple of problems with that.

1. Newbies could get kicked. That something that often comes up. Even if I don't think that this point deserves that much weight...because there are always people that are *caugh* not nice and that will kick newbies for stupid reasons.

2. You faceroll even harder through said content.

3. You could increase the difficulty...but that could be difficult to balance. The vet might have fun but the newbie might feel crushed.

- Remake old content

New mechanics, maybe different versions where a boss might change? It would be a ton of work for the devs though :/ And with the Idea of different versions/paths there could of course be those people that will leave if one is easier of faster than the other. There could of course be adjusted loot depending on the difficulty.

- Level squish

A ton of work as well. A lot of rewards and systems would need adjustments :/

- Dish out more skills at the start and distribute the rest with broadening gaps


I guess the problem here is pretty obvious...it could kill the fun of reaching higher levels. But...you could at least use your cool stuff already!



These are a couple of things that came to my mind. What are your ideas? Or would you prefer it if nothing would change? Orrr do you like one of the ones I listed?

(ps: Please excuse my lackluster english. If something is confusing or hard to understand please let me know and I will try my best to make myself clear )

If they weren’t going to allow players to keep their full toolkits when synced down, I would think that redistribution of how skills are acquired would be the best option. It’s something I’ve actually suggested with a job like DNC to combat proc RNG at levels below 72 (pre-Flourish), and I think some jobs could benefit from getting skills earlier.

Content redesign will likely always be completely out of the question. Too much work, and the developers have rarely expressed interest in going back to old content and adjusting the scaling of it.

I feel like the simplest option would be just to stop giving skills besides traits that change exiting ones, as the Devs would inevitably have to remove old skills from older job no matter how bloated it already is just to have something to give at the higher levels.

Actually I would actually propose compressing the skillsets to level 1-60 and then focusing on the traits moving forward, that would give players a sense of progression while also giving them time (61-90 or 100) to perfect their rotations. From there the max level cap would not be increased until an Abyssea analogue should one such xpac exist.

I would also consolidate the combos and proccable attacks (Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow. Windmill, Bloodshower, etc) , into a single button to give the devs somemore room where applicable for new skills.

(for the Dance moves on Dancers, the Green and Yellow ones would be moved to the AoE attacks the latter's icons would change color to reflect this, and the basic combo would not be consolidated in favor of having them change into the attacks they proc instead. Likewise the proc'd attacks' icons would change colors to match the respective dance moves of the attacks that would proc them)

So basically beeing able to use your fundamental Tool-Kit at 50 or 60 and adding the subtleties after that? I would love that! Stuff like the extra charges and upgrades to your existing skills. That could possibly also help raising the general skill of the community. I witnessed a large skillgap in the community and maybe it would help to be confronted with your base-toolkit early on to figur it out while going through easier content.

Even though I would appreciate if the level 50 Alliance Raids would get a buff (in the case of having said toolkit) to maybe make said content more enjoyable And getting to see mechanics that we probably don't see anymore :3

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

So basically beeing able to use your fundamental Tool-Kit at 50 or 60 and adding the subtleties after that? I would love that! Stuff like the extra charges and upgrades to your existing skills. That could possibly also help raising the general skill of the community. I witnessed a large skillgap in the community and maybe it would help to be confronted with your base-toolkit early on to figur it out while going through easier content.

Even though I would appreciate if the level 50 Alliance Raids would get a buff (in the case of having said toolkit) to maybe make said content more enjoyable And getting to see mechanics that we probably don't see anymore :3

I think having the basic skeleton of your toolkit by level 50 is definitely the way things should go. It’s the first “level cap” of the game, the end of the base game before any expansions. It makes sense to have the full skeleton of your toolkit by then. The following levels can give you things that are upgrades (e.g., Bite Mastery on BRD that upgrades your DoTs), with other “level caps” (60, 70, 80, etc.) giving you a skill that feels worthy of being a capstone skill.

I’m actually discussing with a friend now on how we would squish skills for some of the jobs we play. Like, for example, this is what we discussed for ARC/BRD:

ARC—

Level 1: Heavy Shot
Level 2: Straight Shot
Level 5: Venomous Bite + Windbite
—I think both DoTs should be learned together because you will always use them together in most scenarios once you have both of them. Having one at level 8 and the other at level 30 makes no sense to me.
Level 10: Bloodletter (+ Rain of Death)
—I could almost make the argument of learning both Bloodletter and Rain of Death together, because I’ve squashed some of the skills you learn during level 30~50 BRD. But for simplicity’s sake, only BL right now.
Level 15: Repelling Shot
—I’d personally re-add the damage to Repelling because it’s kind of silly to have a back step on a job with full mobility, but that’s my opinion. I deleted the skill off my hotbar the moment 4.0 dropped and it didn’t deal damage anymore.
Level 18: Quick Nock
—Personally, I don’t mind AOEs being learned sooner (pre-15 before Sastasha), but I think all jobs should have at least one by level 20 and no later. I can excuse not having it in the first three dungeons since they are baby dungeons and hardly threatening.
Level 20: Rain of Death
Level 25: Barrage
—There’s literally no reason to learn this at level 38. It’s silly, in my opinion.
Level 30: Raging Strikes
—I know the level 30 ARC quest makes a big deal about Windbite, but I think a personal damage buff does much better as a level 30 “class capstone” skill. And it functions better when you have more of your toolkit to benefit from it than it would at level 4, which is when you learn it now.

BRD—

Level 30: Wanderer’s Minuet + Pitch Perfect
—There is no reason to learn this at level 52. Not anymore, now that bowmage is no longer a thing. It is the strongest song and the first you use in a standard single-target rotation, so it should be learned first.
Level 35: Mage’s Ballad
Level 40: Army’s Paeon
—By now, you have your full song rotation learned in the order you will normally use them (outside of AOE scenarios). That is how it should be with current BRD’s design.
Level 45: Empyreal Arrow (plus its trait—it’s stupid that the force proc trait is level 68. That’s something you should get used to by the time you’re level 50).
Level 50: Battle Voice
—A party buff is a good capstone ability for BRD. It gives it that BRD feel of being a support job.

Level 60: Sidewinder
—Good level 60 skill. Wouldn’t change that.
Level 62: Caustic Bite + Stormbite upgrade
Level 64: Shadowbite
—I would move this one down. It’s AOE Sidewinder. Now that you have Sidewinder (level 60), getting an AOE upgrade sooner would be nice.
Level 70: Refulgent Arrow
—Good level 70 skill.
Level 72: Burst Shot upgrade
Level 74: Enhanced Quick Nock trait
—Having the AOE upgrade here would be fine, in my opinion. Again, my idea here is to upgrade and build on your existing kit, and it’s not like BRD’s AOE suffers before this level.
Level 80: Apex Arrow
—Make this stupid skill better than what it is if it’s going to be a capstone skill. Please. It feels so tacked on and terrible.


Other skills:

Iron Jaws: Learning this through the HW levels (50~60) would be nice as a good “upgrade” for the basic BRD toolkit. I’d personally like to see it pre-50, but that’s just me.
Troubadour: Learning this anywhere in the HW or SB levels would be fine. It’s a utility, BRD-y upgrade.
Nature’s Minne: See above.
Warden’s Paeon: See above, but with an added caveat of maybe considering a repurposing of the skill. Simply because the Esuna is so niche, since a lot of debuffs at higher levels cannot be cleansed. It maybe being a single-target shield a la Palisade from SB would be nice. Again, a utility, BRD-y kind of feel for the skill.

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I would also consolidate the combos and proccable attacks (Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow. Windmill, Bloodshower, etc) , into a single button to give the devs somemore room where applicable for new skills.

(for the Dance moves on Dancers, the Green and Yellow ones would be moved to the AoE attacks the latter's icons would change color to reflect this, and the basic combo would not be consolidated in favor of having them change into the attacks they proc instead. Likewise the proc'd attacks' icons would change colors to match the respective dance moves of the attacks that would proc them)

Absolute NO for any sort of skill consolidation, for me. Especially on a job like DNC that barely has any buttons to begin with. I’d rather see less new skills going forward (with the exception of capstone abilities), and more traits that upgrade your kit into something stronger. If button bloat is that huge of a concern. (Which, for DNC, it really shouldn’t be because DNC has a lot of hotbar real estate—all the physical ranged do.)

However, for the Straight Shot/Refulgent consolidation, this is already the case. Straight Shot becomes Refulgent at level 70 via a trait. They are no longer separate as of 5.0 (which I personally dislike because I liked the SS buff upkeep to give BRD another layer of stuff to do but that’s me).

As many, I'd like the main rotation/skill being availaible at 50-60 max, and the rest being some extra flavor or trait.
Currently we have some weird thing when leveld sync.

AST Divination without Sleeve Draw, meaning you can't align it in the opener.
DRK best mitigation at lvl 70 and aoe combo at lvl 72.
WHM Rapture at 76, solace only as lily spender
Brd's lvl 50 rotation gap without minuet
Mnk lack of way to keep stack and lack of oGCD without form shift and chakra...
Dnc without florish

The list actually really long.
It doesn't feel good to be level synced with a lot of class.

I understand the priority is the efficency of class for the current max cap, of course.
But since roulette is one of the most run "conten/activyt" in the game, it'd be appreciated to have a better gameplay experience at lower level with consolidated toolkit.
At least, it's my opinion

Originally Posted by Alice_Chrystal

Low level content is not exactly fun and i fear that especially the level 50 stuff and below will become an absolute chore to do when 6.0 comes out (when max. level likely will be 90). And there is the problem with new players. I witnessed a lot of people quitting because the combat is so slow at the start and only really gets starting at lvl. 60+.

My question would be what makes the combat slow for them. Did they come from a game or MMO with fast-paced combat like BDO?

Also, they have said many times they will be shortening ARR content by about 20 or so quests. That's a great start!

I had a couple of approaches in my mind but none of them are perfect or easy to execute:

- Let higher-level players keep their skills in low level content.

EverQuest 2 does this. Essentially all the skills are kept but the damage is significantly lowered to the player they mentor to. But I don't know how this game deals with skills, so it may be difficult to even do that.

- Remake old content

New mechanics, maybe different versions where a boss might change? It would be a ton of work for the devs though :/ And with the Idea of different versions/paths there could of course be those people that will leave if one is easier of faster than the other. There could of course be adjusted loot depending on the difficulty.

I think that's a good idea. They had done it in a way where the dungeons became one straight path later on instead of having branching ones for achievements. But people will always find an easier path or ways to do something.

- Dish out more skills at the start and distribute the rest with broadening gaps

Eh, skill bloat. I think it's fine right now. We can already have quite a number of levels before we get anything. We get a lot of skills in the beginning before it peters out to maybe every 2 or three levels before nothing.