Calamities explained

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Then by this definition, they could have easily done this during times when a person with the Blessing did not exist, i.e. any time before ARR, because the WoL is literally the only person to have a fully powered Blessing.



I am certain the crystal of darkness was stated to be to how they possess people, rather than manifest a body of any kind.



And in the end, this is what it comes down to, a matter of interpretation, because nowhere else in the story does it imply that the Blessing prevented the other Ascians from journeying to the Source. Nowhere is it stated that the Ascians relied on Lahabrea and Elidibus on providing them hosts to be funneled into to exist on the Source. We can only hope that the other languages carry a more clear meaning, or that this was answered somewhere else.

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Yep, they could have. Why they didn't... well it wasn't in the script.

Crystal of Darkness is how they originally came to possess their hosts, yes,which is how they keep their form manifest.

It's quite literally stated in Nabriales speech, "My kind." What would be the difference between Nabriales and Lahabrea/Elidibus? Sundering. I'm guessing it likely wasn't, since it relies on context we've gained from storylines beyond it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yep, they could have. Why they didn't... well it wasn't in the script.

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That leaves what I'd consider a huge gaping plot hole, and the alternative explanation leaves a smaller one, which is why my interpretation leans that way. They always could have acted on their own volition to get their plans underway, Nabriales just couldn't because the thing he needed for his plan was locked away in a place he couldn't freely enter until the Blessing was gone.

Another example of an Ascian acting on their own for their own ends: Emmerololth, who wanted to get the primal Eureka out of cold storage from the Ilse of Val. That also happened before we lost the Blessing. Granted Emmerololth's actual fate in that endeavour is sort of up in the air still.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

That leaves what I'd consider a huge gaping plot hole, and the alternative explanation leaves a smaller one, which is why my interpretation leans that way. They always could have acted on their own volition to get their plans underway, Nabriales just couldn't because the thing he needed for his plan was locked away in a place he couldn't freely enter until the Blessing was gone.

Another example of an Ascian acting on their own for their own ends: Emmerololth, who wanted to get the primal Eureka out of cold storage from the Ilse of Val. That also happened before we lost the Blessing. Granted Emmerololth's actual fate in that endeavour is sort of up in the air still.

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No, it actually doesn't. If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they? It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart. Villains that start out leagues beyond the hero could have killed us at any turn, but chose not to, for completely unspecified and no real good reason.

Also, if shard Ascians could touch down on The Source unassisted, free to sow chaos to their heart's content and bring on the next ardor, then why didn't all 13 members of the Convocation do just that once we'd cast out Lahabrea and ruined their plans the first time? To me a restriction on their coming and going makes the most sense.

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Originally Posted by Naria

Eli goes from, "hey isn't the WoL interesting with how gifted they are with the Echo" and "we should be on the same side" in the ARR patch story to personally trying kill them in the Stormblood patch story. So whatever changed his attitude had to happen between those two points. From what we know, Lahabrea's death does seem like a good candidate, but since the WoL wasn't the direct culprit it makes me wonder if there is more significance to it beyond simply the death of one of the unsunderd Ascians.

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He very specifically changes tack at the end of Heavensward - from memory, declaring "the Warrior of Light has grown too strong; their power encroaches on the gods". We just obliterated Igehyorhm and then went on to fight Thordan who was charged up with both Nidhogg's eyes and Lahabrea's aether. We're clearly not going to join his side and we're too dangerous to be allowed to continue.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No, it actually doesn't. If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they? It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart. Villains that start out leagues beyond the hero could have killed us at any turn, but chose not to, for completely unspecified and no real good reason.

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Yeah, it definitely sounds like Nabriales couldn't physically approach the Scions' base to steal Tupsimati until we lost the Blessing, or why wouldn't he have done that before?

I'm inclined to think they were just working from a completely different concept of what Ascians might be and what rules they might be governed by at that time. The cosmology of the setting, from the statements they make, seems to be the "real world" and "the void", with the Ascians allied to the void and trying to drag the world into chaos.

From memory, Nabriales also talks about the staff being some kind of "key" and it all seems like something from a different plot to the one we ended up with.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

If Lahabrea or Elidibus could have taken Tupsimati at any time before the WoL, then why didn't they?

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Simple, it wasn't a factor in their plans at the time. Or rather, Elidibus wasn't really active as a force until we beat Lahabrea, so it is actually more "wasn't a factor in Lahabrea's plans".

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It's best not to try and divest the plot of every little thing, because it will fall apart.

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Actually, doing this is the exact reason the lore forum exists. And then we gather up the questions with the most glaring plotholes and present them to Koji or Oda or even Yoshi-P to try and cover them up. :p

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Also, if shard Ascians could touch down on The Source unassisted, free to sow chaos to their heart's content and bring on the next ardor, then why didn't all 13 members of the Convocation do just that once we'd cast out Lahabrea and ruined their plans the first time? To me a restriction on their coming and going makes the most sense.

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The true answer? Arrogance, a staple trait for most Final Fantasy villains (not all ofc). They believed themselves better than us, and payed the price. What I find less believable is that the Ascian Overlords do not have a sense of camaraderie regarding their shared origin. Remember when Nabriales got destroyed? (Lahabrea: Eh, he brought it upon himself). How about with Igeyhorm and Lahabrea (Elidibus: those idiots left a huge mess for me to clean up), and Elidibus in general (Elidibus: I do not mind if you kill the black robed guys if it is part of your plans) (Note:granted this can be retroactively ascribed to being able to bring most of them back through their other shards, with the excption of Lahabrea), but all in all that is most likely due to a change in direction of writing rather than everything else.

It seems like the Ascians actually aren't completely united in their goals and motivations. Emet and Elidibus appear to be more on the side of working towards the rejoining, while Lahabrea and Nabriales are more for killing Hydaelyn to make way for Zodiark. After all, them just brute forcing calamities doesn't achieve a rejoining if a shard isn't ready.