Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

One of the Warriors of Light from Ivalice straight up betrayed Hydaelyn.

Also Zenos and Fordola have artificial versions of the echo and are immune to tempering as well so you can’t say “WoL can’t be tempered bc they’re already tempered by Hydaelyn”.

I really don’t understand at all why people seem to think Hydaelyn is subversive and is using us and has us tempered. Sure, I don’t think Emet was lying about her being a primal and he has no reason to, but her whole schtick is free will. What is the point of enslaving our minds to do the right thing and save everyone? She does other things that aren’t like normal primal too, such as lack of religion/worshipers. Per Koji himself, Other than the Path of Twelve, the city leaders, and a few others, most of the world doesn’t know anything about the mothercrystal and they don’t even know the planet is called Hydaelyn.

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We infer from the evidence we have that it is the Echo that prevents people from being tempered by Primals. But Fordola and Zenos have a manufactured Echo. However the evidence shows that this prevents Fordola from being tempered too. Nothing about any of those three statements demonstrates that the WoL hasn't been tempered so I'm confused how you are inferring that.

I'm not sure where the concept that Hydaelyn represents free will comes from. Hydaelyn represents a last ditch, desperate attempt by the 14th and (possibly) others to stop the rest of their people from sacrificing the new life Zodiark created. Her existence is predicated on opposing Zodiark and his followers. That's it. She certainly didn't offer Minfilia a choice when she had Minfilia run back into range of Y'shtola's Flow spell. It may be that Minfilia would have agreed, but she was never offered the option.

I have no idea whether the WoL has been tempered or not, I am just genuinely confused by the ardor with which people embrace the idea they haven't. Just as they embrace the idea that Zodiark is bad, Hydaelyn good. Personally I am waiting until I have something definitive to base my conclusions on.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

We infer from the evidence we have that it is the Echo that prevents people from being tempered by Primals. But Fordola and Zenos have a manufactured Echo. However the evidence shows that this prevents Fordola from being tempered too. Nothing about any of those three statements demonstrates that the WoL hasn't been tempered so I'm confused how you are inferring that.

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Because the idea that the echo is us being tempered and that's why we can't be tempered by others comes up in the lore forum at least once a year.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I'm not sure where the concept hat Hydaelyn represents free will comes from.

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The song Answers, which the writers have said is canonically sung by Hydaelyn. Plus inferring from everything that we've seen in game. She's a great and powerful primal, yet lets life do its own thing without worshiping her or knowing she exists and only gets involved when an outside force threatens all life. She just wants us to live. And she doesn't want to guide us either, that's the role the previous generation of life has for the next. Warriors of Light from the past have had free will too. Per the Ivalice quests and the lorebook, the Zodiac Braves were WoLs like us and had the blessing of Hydaelyn, yet their leader Ajora went and summoned Ultima, who is trying to corrupt Hydaelyn. Doesn't sound to me like something a tempered person without free will would do.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I have no idea whether the WoL has been tempered or not, I am just genuinely confused by the ardor with which people embrace the idea they haven't. Just as they embrace the idea that Zodiark is bad, Hydaelyn good. Personally I am waiting until I have something definitive to base my conclusions on.

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I'm confused why people feel like they need to mistrust everything we know in the game. We've spent the better part of a decade fighting Ascians who have been killing millions across the eons so that they can eventually destroy all 13 extra shards of reality with people living on them just so they can summon their god who will rule in darkness. Yet people think whether Zodiark is bad and Hydaelyn is good is ambiguous? What is there to doubt that Hydaelyn is acting in our best interest and not that of her own?

And I'm pretty sure Koji came out once to say that we're not tempered, but I can't remember when or if that happened.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I think the statement was misleading, but not necessarily deliberately. I think that its just as you said: they are much better crafted primals. So much better in fact, that many rules we apply to run-of-the-mill primals don't apply to them. He was just using words that we can understand easily.

It does bring up some interesting questions about creation magic and its limits though. But thats for another thread.

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I think the answer or the "alleged answer" lies in his choice of terminology. He refers to Zodiark and Hydaelyn as Primals, but he's a "Garlean" why wouldn't he use the term Eikon? We, as the player, know there is a difference, but regardless, both rely on a belief. A belief or a myth is all it takes to create a Primal/Eikon. The fact that there are monuments and images of him in other locations, that seem to "predate" the original stars destruction, hints that he existed well before his summoning, and that over time his legacy became what it is known as today.

It's both similar and different from two of the Primals we know of in creation, Garuda and Enkidu. Both existed, but overtime Garuda's "existence" was turned into what it is now, whereas Enkidu, an actual individual, was summoned from deep desire, with no "prior" myth behind them. The later of which works in supporting Hydaelyn's sudden existance. Though that would still take into account her actually "existing" in another form prior to summoning.

But this is all just speculation. Regardless, I don't think Emet-Selch lied about anything for two main reasons. One, though it's not said in game, he's the "Angel of Truth" in the Ivalice saga. I mean think about it, they could of used any other Scion of Light, but choose him; it's not like we knew his name prior to 5.0. And two, it was a big part of the reveal for 5.0. I doubt the devs would drop that on us if it was a lie. I mean, they could of outright told us what a Primal was in 2.X but let it linger, with some added mystery, until 3.0. And even then, there is still some air of mystery attached, even though the formula is kinda well known now.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On the subject of tempering, Ifrit's inability to temper us and attributing it to us already having such a "blessing" strongly suggests that the Blessing of Light is a form of tempering. That said, if we operate under the (relatively fair) assumption that all of Hydaelyn's chosen have such a blessing, it doesn't seem to actually do anything other than provide a power boost when fighting enemies of the world (primals, Ascians, etc). The Echo is supposedly what vaccinates us against the influence of other primals, and others with the (partial) Blessing are even capable of rebelling against Hydaelyn. The slavish devotion present in the tempered followers of some other primals is completely absent.

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I think there are two ways we could view Hydaelyn's blessing, both of which are analogous to the Tempering by other Primals.

One way of looking at it is like a vaccine. When you get a vaccine, you get a mild case of the "disease" so that your body can build the antibodies needed to fight it off, preventing you from fully getting the disease. In that case the blessing is like tempering-lite, it allows our body to resist tempering but still has full control; and not be held up in bed for a week or life, lol?

The other way of looking at it might be a bit controversial, but think about tempering like an addiction. Regardless of anything else, everyone is addicted to something, but how bad that something is for you or how bad it is perceived by others varies, depending on the subject matter, and the other individuals' knowledge of it. All addictions change your brain chemistry, but to what degree varies. Coffee is an addiction most people have, can't start the day without it, need a pick me up, something; but coffee isnt viewed as "bad". But try replacing that with an alcoholic beverage and most people sing a different tune, despite the fact that both can be lethal.

This also could help explain to others why individuals who are already tempered by one Primal view the tempering of another as "wrong". Most people who don't understand an addiction view it as wrong. There are the common "bad ones" drugs, alcohol, stealing, but some mundane ones can be just as bad if someone doesn't understand them from their perspective; sports, video games, food, etc.

I don't think it's wrong to say we are tempered. Some might think so, but only because we have been conditioned to view tempering as a bad thing, instead of something potentially helpful. Besides free will is subjective. Just like in the real world what is viewed as "free will" varies depending on the subject, and as we know most things defy logic on a daily basis.

Zenos describes tempering as some sort of "battle of willpower" at one point. A primal has a stronger willpower than a normal person, and is thus capable of controlling/tempering them. He also describes the echo as sort of a buff to your willpower, which actually fits in with the Brilliant Conviction buff we get during solo duties. (this buff is basically called Will of Light - your strong will as warrior of lights lets you surpass your own boundaries in the 3 other language versions). So the echo buffs your willpower above that of a primal, which is why they can't temper us. Now, given the nature of his creation, Zodiark ended up with a level of willpower beyond that of an Ancient, which is why the Ascians got tempered by him. (see my previous post on how this might've simply been an unforeseen side effect)

so tempering is simply a powerlevel numbers game

I was unaware that we'd been told Answers is definitely Hydaelyn speaking. Could you direct me to where that was said by the writers please?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I was unaware that we'd been told Answers is definitely Hydaelyn speaking. Could you direct me to where that was said by the writers please?

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PAX '15 /10char

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

PAX '15 /10char

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Interesting. So Koji said that Susan Calloway's sections are Hydaelyn's voice telling the races why they must suffer, right? I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to conclude that Hydaelyn is a benevolent goddess based on free will from that. Sounds more like some of the worst excesses of the Catholic Church if I'm honest.

It's a great song - one of my favourites since 1.0 - but I've never seen it as a hopeful, uplifting song. And I have been vaguely suspicious of Hydaelyn since the fight against Ultimate Weapon in the Praetorium. She didn't come across to me as a loving Mother Goddess, more of an obsessed, rather broken avatar who only cares about one thing. There hasn't been anything in the story so far to persuade me otherwise. If it turns out she IS a benevolent Mother Goddess, great, but the writing of the story better be convincing. At this moment everything is pointing in a different direction for me.

I would also like to mention the passionate debates before Shadowbringers when the people who were adamant that Hydaelyn couldn't be a primal were very much left with egg on their faces. Don't state things as absolutes until you absolutely know they're absolutes. Speculate by all means. Which is what I'm about to do.

Ramuh's words to us before we fight him have always troubled me. I'm paraphrasing but he says that Light and Dark weren't separated until men interfered. I think this may mean that the Summoning of Zodiark caused the split, and the reason it caused the split is somehow to do with the Fourteenth refusing to take part and leaving. If the full Convocation had been involved, they would have summoned the true Will of the Star, an entity where Light and Dark were in balance. And it's going to be on us to put this right.

This is all speculation but, based on the information I have right now, I feel like it's an elegant solution. Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are 'wrong things' with agendas that are not ultimately beneficial to the star, and we somehow have to merge them or send them back where they came from. Or both

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Interesting. So Koji said that Susan Calloway's sections are Hydaelyn's voice telling the races why they must suffer, right? I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to conclude that Hydaelyn is a benevolent goddess based on free will from that. Sounds more like some of the worst excesses of the Catholic Church if I'm honest.

It's a great song - one of my favourites since 1.0 - but I've never seen it as a hopeful, uplifting song. And I have been vaguely suspicious of Hydaelyn since the fight against Ultimate Weapon in the Praetorium. She didn't come across to me as a loving Mother Goddess, more of an obsessed, rather broken avatar who only cares about one thing. There hasn't been anything in the story so far to persuade me otherwise. If it turns out she IS a benevolent Mother Goddess, great, but the writing of the story better be convincing. At this moment everything is pointing in a different direction for me.

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How so? Part of life as a parent is the day your children leave home. You cannot shield them from the cruelty of the world forever; to do so is nothing more than coddling them.

I must point this out (again): Hydaelyn does not exist to dictate humanity's future, only to ensure that humanity has a future (that does not involve being Zodiark's food). If she were trying to dictate humanity's future the case for her deposition would be much stronger, but overall she is content to sit back and let humanity decide its own future unless Zodiark's agents are interfering. (So the "reins of history in the hands of man" shtick people love to parrot for this argument makes little sense.)

Death and suffering are sad and unavoidable, but they are what give life meaning. To believe otherwise is to believe that nothing matters at all, and as far as I am concerned, nihilism is an indulgence that cannot be afforded if you wish to live a life of conscience. (Zenos' nihilism is arguably what makes him one of the few objectively evil characters in the game.)

But please, elaborate on your viewpoint if you would.

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Actually, I would argue that due to the planet and everything living on it being split in fourteen when he was sundered, Zodiark is closer to a true god than Hydaelyn. Being an artificial god doesn't mean he's not a genuine one.

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Hmm, no, I think for the term 'god' to mean anything, it has to connote a being outside the created order, upon whom the created order is dependent. I don't think FF has ever posited the existence of such a being(s) in any of its iterations. The games generally take an anti-theistic stance, wherein supposed gods turn out to be in some manner fraudulent, or outright malevolent. I don't see XIV being an exception to this.

The fact that the Star was sundered along with Zodiark to me implies that Hydaelyn's attack did not discriminate between the Star itself, and the supposed 'will of the Star' (Zodiark). This in no wise suggests that the Star itself is dependent upon Zodiark: it was just caught in the crossfire between two Primals.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

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Agreed. I get the impression (from Dragonsong and elsewhere) that Hydaelyn has come to think of these 14x-diluted beings as her 'children,' and she doesn't want her children to 'grow up' (i.e., become unsundered), because then the relation would be reversed: she would be the 'child' (creation) of those who summoned her to begin with.