Monk Adjustment Feedback 5.1

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So it was terrible as implemented for not turning GL into a non-mechanic as AF/UI (cannot drop unless stunned for 6+ seconds just before Fire), BotD (refreshes for more duration than its own CD), and Huton (costing only 40 potency per minute to maintain) were? Should all three just turn just turn into permanent effects, or even traits so they stop using up our gauge space? At least we later got the Form Shift buff to bring our mechanic down to par.

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Yes more Niche skills on one job that already has a ton of Niche Skills for the exact same purpose is bad. And it's actually worse when other Job mechanics can easily be worked around with powerful broadly useful skills.

I know you love screaming about "Muh job diversity" but Job diversity can shove it when all it works out into in actuality is one job is being arbitrarily lacking functionality because its activation requirements for abilities are asinine. It was stupid with Riddle of Earth in Stormblood needing you to take a hit as your only means of refreshing stacks and no one else had to, doubly so when you were actively punished for taking those hits by Vuln Stacks or other debuffs and it would be just as bad if our other option was having to stand in place while no one else was even mildly inconvenienced.

By all means, keep Greased Lightning as much of a Non-factor to upkeep now forever, because at least in the future I can hope for some new skills that I actually get to use rotationally instead of more terrible upkeep skills. Maybe they'll trim some of the ones we have and give us some of the other utility we lack like a damage free movement skill that I don't have to cram in my burst phase!

Probably not because the devs continue to prove they neither know what to do with Monk nor particularly care, but I can hope!

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Yes more Niche skills on one job that already has a ton of Niche Skills for the exact same purpose is bad. And it's actually worse when other Job mechanics can easily be worked around with powerful broadly useful skills.

I know you love screaming about "Muh job diversity" but Job diversity can shove it when all it works out into in actuality is one job is being arbitrarily lacking functionality because its activation requirements for abilities are asinine. It was stupid with Riddle of Earth in Stormblood needing you to take a hit as your only means of refreshing stacks and no one else had to, doubly so when you were actively punished for taking those hits by Vuln Stacks or other debuffs and it would be just as bad if our other option was having to stand in place while no one else was even mildly inconvenienced.

By all means, keep Greased Lightning as much of a Non-factor to upkeep now forever, because at least in the future I can hope for some new skills that I actually get to use rotationally instead of more terrible upkeep skills. Maybe they'll trim some of the ones we have and give us some of the other utility we lack like a damage free movement skill that I don't have to cram in my burst phase!

Probably not because the devs continue to prove they neither know what to do with Monk nor particularly care, but I can hope!

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I don't even think it's a diversity thing so much as having a job with a cohesive kit. Additionally, with RoE in SB I didn't mind it because it offered a way to maintain GL during downtime since generally unavoidable damage would go out prior or during the downtime, so you'd pop it to keep GL through it (if possible, if not just TK).

I just want MNK to not feel terrible in the opener and not have skills that completely clash with one another. SSS clashes with Anatman now because it further delays getting GL procs. TK pretty much just clashes with our entire kit. Anatman also clashes with Form Shift. Then we have RoE that also refreshes stacks + the 30 seconds of True North. It's just a cluster of skills with no thought put into them and how they interact with the rest of the job's skills. It's sad when MNK is one of the OG jobs but probably has the least cohesive kit in the entire game.

TK - turn this ability into an attack without consuming GL and back jump effect for mobility.
100 potency.

SSS - turn this into an ability and only 20% chance executable whenever there is a crit in demonish dot damage. 300 potency and 1 sec cooldown. Making this rare signature move.

Anantment - turn this into a buff ability and only stop GL timer for 10sec. So I can PB for laden fists.

Form shift - need to add 5 sec to the GL timer every time we hit the button. Kind of sucky to hit it 3 times prior teleporting.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I know you love screaming about "Muh job diversity"

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Expecting that when a mechanic is implemented and has historically been vital to the job it should not then be reduced to the only the pretense of a mechanic (outside of potentially costing a GCD of PB's DK-LF spam) =/= "screaming about job diversity".

It's a Chekhov's gun situation. Why have the mechanic at all if it amounts to nothing but a wind-up penalty at the beginning of a fight and create a 3-step (SSS, TK, Anatman) means of mitigating downtime loss where it could, at this point, have carried roughly the same nuance with only a single key?

Our difference is only in that I'd rather use what we've had effectively, without bloat. Meanwhile, you'd apparently rather use... anything divorced from forms, stances, and GL--all things that allowed for an enjoyable experience prior to convenience- and utility-bloat--just because you so hate the idea of, say, using GL as a resource instead of merely maintenance? That's the only difference here. I want something cohesive that doesn't have to abandon what has already been shown to work, trimming the bloat and fleshing out the functional parts instead of kneecapping them. You want something cohesive with... an entirely different set of legs?

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Physical only Shield Samba would be near utterly worthless due to great majority of raid damage being magical. Feint already has very little use in content.
Tactician affecting people's cds would be horribly annoying as that would affect how everything lines up, especially if MCH wasn't consistent with its use. There's a reason Spear's original cd reduction effect has been replaced with crit rate in SB(before the cards were completely reworked in SHB).

While I agree that ranged dps mitigation is pretty lame, these suggestions are nonsensical. SB Troubadour and Dismantle would be much better with their unique advantages.

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Hmm was just only a 5 minute brainstorming out of the thought that all 3 should have different effects to be individual and not such copy paste same skills with just different names n icons

How about this then:

Shied Samba > 10% Damage Reduction
Troubador > 5s longer Debuff/Buff Effects for Party Members and 5s longer lasting DoTs, so for example a Machinists Wildfire under Troubador lasts 5s longer before it runs out
Tactician > 5s of all skills performed by Party members are guaranteed critical direct hits, basically that skill that Machinists have for that as party buff, remove therefore the single version and replace it with a different skill

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Originally Posted by Makimaki_sargatanas

TK - turn this ability into an attack without consuming GL and back jump effect for mobility.
100 potency.

SSS - turn this into an ability and only 20% chance executable whenever there is a crit in demonish dot damage. 300 potency and 1 sec cooldown. Making this rare signature move.

Anantment - turn this into a buff ability and only stop GL timer for 10sec. So I can PB for laden fists.

Form shift - need to add 5 sec to the GL timer every time we hit the button. Kind of sucky to hit it 3 times prior teleporting.

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Honestly, I wouldn't want TK to be a gutted potency skill just to gain a backstep which, imo, we don't even need. I would rather they keep the potency as is and just find a way to make it more usable/unique. They could make it function like Foul/Xenoglossy for the easiest rework, or they could just make it an oGCD that's up every 30 seconds - 60 seconds and give it some sort of additional effect (increased crit rate for 10 seconds? Guarantees your next 3 GCDs will open a chakra?).

SSS - Personally I don't want more RNG skills that come out of getting crits. We already have a resource devoted to it, I don't want a high potency move devoted to it as well. Also, I do not want it to become MNK Pitch Perfect. They can honestly leave it as it is. It's a nice skill for mitgating damage loss during short disconnects as well as good burst into a long disconnect. If they were to rework it I'd rather they just give it a CD and change the additional effect to opening a chakra or empowering one of our core GCDs or something. New idea: Maybe make it combo off of Tornado Kick. So if TK was a 30-60 second CD, it gives you a buff which allows you to use SSS (kinda like Sword Oath or Assassinate Ready) and just make SSS the higher potency of the two and also have it give 1 or 2 chakra stacks or something (that may be a bit much so the first bit would be fine) but I kinda like it cause it links the two capstone skills together and gives them both more uses throughout a fight.

Anatman - Literally just make it give a stack of GL, maybe give it 2 charges, on like a 60 second CD (if charges, 30 seconds per charge maybe). This would also refresh GL timer if at max stacks, so you could do 6 opo-opo PB all the time.

Form Shift - No change needed honestly. Having our forms last 15 seconds plus the refresh from using Form Shift from Coeurl to opo-opo already makes it impossible to drop GL, if they added an extension every time it was pressed it would just be like putting training wheels on a bike and then also making that bike run like a trolley where it's just pulled along by a string. I don't want a baby-mode easy job, I just want a job that's cohesive in its kit and identity.

Aside from those, the only other things I really want out of MNK is for all of its core 6 GCDs to have additional effects that make it feel like it actually combos from one attack to the next and its stances to be more involved (or just removed). So DK, Twin, Demo, and Bootshine are good as is. They could do something where like True generates a Chakra or makes your next GCD deal 50 more potency or something. Snap could maybe do something where it lowers the CD of Shoulder Tackle by 5 seconds or just something that makes it seem like all of MNK's kit is tied together and works in harmony, like a martial arts job should.

As for stances, my only idea is to make GL4 a normal trait like the previous GL traits then remove FoE and balance FoF and FoW to where FoF would be what you use in buff windows to do more burst and FoW outside of those windows to deal more sustained DPS. Maybe make FoF still a 10% damage buff but make FoW like a 5% haste buff or something. If that makes it too clunky or complicated then just remove the fist stances because they're kinda pointless otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ZyrinMisharuji

I mean, in my opinion, they just need to rework 2 skills currently and MNK would feel pretty solid throughout 5.X.

Firstly, Anatman needs to just become an oGCD (maybe with charges) that grant a stack of GL upon use. It would eliminate the clunkiness of the opener and no one would need 3rd party software to optimize it.

Secondly, Tornado Kick NEEDS to be reworked to function like Foul/Xenoglossy on BLM, at least in my opinion. In Stormblood being able to use 2 TKs roughly every 30 seconds felt amazing and almost every MNK loved it. Square felt it was too much and killed it and made TK less viable with the GL management skills we now have. So, by doing this suggested change MNKs could get actual use out of our highest potency move (and it's a reward for maintaining GL). Additionally, for newer MNKs, as they level and get to 60 they'll only have Form Shift for GL upkeep but then as they progress they'll get more and more skills so that they never lose GL and therefore never lose uses of TK. Makes sense, linear progression and all. Furthermore, this would add value to Anatman as we wouldn't need to use it to regain stacks since we shouldn't ever be losing stacks, and in this way Anatman and Form Shift no longer blend their jobs together so each skill will feel unique and serve a specific purpose.

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I gotta say those ideas are pretty interesting, but honestly I think SE doesn't care about what we say, I've lost count how many times I've asked for a tornado kick rework into something that is part of hour rotation. In the past they slowed us down and they still keep giving us stuff to either slow us down or remove our greased lightning stacks, and then six sided star ... yay great they do nothing as we ask them to do. They don't listen to our feedback, so if someone of SE happens to read this, fix monk instead of just giving him damage!

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Originally Posted by Noctisnine

I gotta say those ideas are pretty interesting, but honestly I think SE doesn't care about what we say, I've lost count how many times I've asked for a tornado kick rework into something that is part of hour rotation.

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When they had that whole segment about reworking Monk and giving it a job progression and listening to feedback pre Shadowbringers - I honestly believed it and I'm so mad about this because I have been playing this game long enough to know better. Although I really didn't expect them to make Anatman worse, that's a new low, I guess. I gave up my ninja spot in raid because I'm stupid. Now I'm locked into this miserable class for Ultimate since I spent all my tomes on the bis set.

I'm not making this mistake again next raid tier.

Yeah, I mean some of the thought behind the moves was good. Anatman being a way to freeze stacks in downtime/build them during transitions. Pretty good idea, poorly implemented skill though. SSS refreshing GL timer, good idea, helps with GL loss in downtime. Poorly implemented since it blends with Anatman and extends our GCD which we don't want (We wanna be like sonic SE, gotta go fast!). The GL4 trait just completely throws me for a loop. Why make this pretty much useless stance (outside of running around a city faster) our new DPS stance???? We go like 40 levels of FoF being our DPS stance only for this rando movement speed buff to become it 76(?) wtf??? Like I said in my post before this one, if they had changed FoW to be like a 5% haste buff, FoF a 10% damage buff, and GL4 to be a normal trait not tied to a stance, it woulda been fine. Like it's a minor annoyance, but still an annoyance that I can't make sense of.