Summoner 5.0 changes - summoning -

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Originally Posted by Razard

According to who? Who is THE authority on what a Summoner is and isn't?



And why can't it be both? Why can't it be a DoT mage who uses a resource to build up to a big Summon Burst phase? Oh right, sorry. A loud Minority who don't think it feels like a """Traditional""" Summoner.

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Gosh your reposes have no thought behind them, I explicitly said that the SMN community is split between two opposing views, there is no minority or majority there is a complete fissure that you will not find with any other job honestly.

Some want a split from the clunky ass pet system and out of place dots to move towards a summoner who summons things like Demi bahamut, others like the whole pet system and dots. SMN is in identity crisis, even thought it is in a great place does not mean it’s without its issues.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Summoner as it is now is a good class. A total overhaul would be a mistake in my opinion, the class only needs minor tweaking and trying to make it align with the idea of a summoner thematically at the expense of how the class plays isn't a good idea. I don't really understand the desire to make it "more" of a summoner anyway myself. The class is already heavily reliant on summoning, you just don't have to constantly summon while playing it. I'm fine with SE adding a class that has you micromanaging your pet, but Summoner should also stay the way it is now.

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Arguably, is it even really a Summoner at that point? The only pet-related abilities are Rouse, Enkindle, Devotion, and Contagion if you have Garuda out (and even then Contagion is only pet-centric to give Garuda something to do, it could just as easily be a part of my own kit as the caster and there wouldn't be a difference). Summoner does indeed play quite smoothly right now, but outside of 4 skills in a 30+ skill kit, everything is coming from me as the caster while the pet just kind of autos or uses a single extra skill on command while I have GCDs rolling. Don't call me a Summoner if it's a one-and-done with occasional BahaMage shenanigans.

I genuinely believe Arcanist was always meant for Scholar. Everything in the kit outside of the Ruin line of spells falls so perfectly in line with what Scholars are about. I understand the game needs a DoT-based DPS job as an MMO staple, but I don't think SMN was the way to introduce that. DWT and Demi-Baha are steps toward better gameplay for SMN, and I think if we're going to talk about job tweaks, we should be talking about tweaks to the kit that either center on smoother egi control, or the elimination of egi and filler damage for a dedicated summon-centric series of burst trances that lead up to demi summons.

"Oh, but that's a lot of attention paid to one job!" Yep. It sure is. Because there is literally zero problem with making jobs diverse enough despite similar play styles, and sometimes that means some jobs are a little flashier than others. Non-issue, doesn't impact viability in gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Gosh your reposes have no thought behind them, I explicitly said that the SMN community is split between two opposing views, there is no minority or majority there is a complete fissure that you will not find with any other job honestly.

Some want a split from the clunky ass pet system and out of place dots to move towards a summoner who summons things like Demi bahamut, others like the whole pet system and dots. SMN is in identity crisis, even thought it is in a great place does not mean it’s without its issues.

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And saying things like:

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If I was in charge, which obviously I'm not, I would have deleted SMN as it stands now

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Obviously require a 300 IQ intellect, huh?
And:

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Arguably, is it even really a Summoner at that point?

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What does this even mean? What is "really a Summoner"?

The problem with the Summoner complaints is that they always boil down to aesthetics and "Muh Traditional Summoner feelz".

Personally I don't think the Job has an Identity crisis. It's the players. Ask 50 Summoner Job "advocates" (couldn't think of a better term) what they would do with the job and get 50 different answers from each. And this appears to be the biggest problem. No one can articulate anything and they expect S-E to parse a bunch of incoherent rambings then whinge that they don't get what they want.

This has been going on for 6 gosh darned years. And it seems that no matter what concessions S-E makes towards this entitled section of the fanbase in trying to make the Summoner work in this style, they just find things to whinge about and wasting energy on complaining about what the Job isn't, rather than what the job is.

Summoner feels fine, mostly, the only thing that feels a little off to me is the trance step. Channeling isn't really Summoning.

I'd replace trance with Demi-Ifrit/Garuda/Titan (changing depending on which egi you have out.) That to me would "feel" perfectly Summoner.

Start with tiny pet and DoTs, go to big summon and burst phase, onward after that to your ultimate summon and even bigger burst phase.

I might be tempted to shift timers and potencies about a bit so you just go 1-2-1-3 on the phases instead of 1-2-1-2-1-3, drop the 2nd repeated trance/potentially mini-demi.

Honestly though, I like Summoner as it is. I'd make tweaks here and there, make some cosmetic changes too, but I don't think it needs a full strip-down and rebuild. Doesn't need a copy of Bards song system with primal skins draped over it either.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Summoner feels fine, mostly, the only thing that feels a little off to me is the trance step. Channeling isn't really Summoning.

I'd replace trance with Demi-Ifrit/Garuda/Titan (changing depending on which egi you have out.) That to me would "feel" perfectly Summoner.

Start with tiny pet and DoTs, go to big summon and burst phase, onward after that to your ultimate summon and even bigger burst phase.

I might be tempted to shift timers and potencies about a bit so you just go 1-2-1-3 on the phases instead of 1-2-1-2-1-3, drop the 2nd repeated trance/potentially mini-demi.

Honestly though, I like Summoner as it is. I'd make tweaks here and there, make some cosmetic changes too, but I don't think it needs a full strip-down and rebuild. Doesn't need a copy of Bards song system with primal skins draped over it either.

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I like this idea. I would still want the pet AI to be reworked, but I agree that the current kit isn’t wrong, just clunky. The original summoner was based on a turn based system, which is not happening in 14. So I think we would lose a lot of what makes the class unique. Mobility and utlity being the first. I would always want more summons, but I’m willing to wait :P, but yeah I think the current kit can be streamlined down into something that fits the idea of a classic summoner, while still maintaining our current standards.

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Originally Posted by Razard

What does this even mean? What is "really a Summoner"?

The problem with the Summoner complaints is that they always boil down to aesthetics and "Muh Traditional Summoner feelz".

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This argument holds zero value in a game where literally every single other job that borrows its name from a classic series touchstone fulfills the aesthetic and thematic fantasy of those jobs. Even Bard, since the Stormblood changes, better incorporates songs as timed windows with different support effects into its battle rotation to help the party. Summoner is the only one that only gets kind of the way there, and even then, only once we have access to Demi-Bahamut. I didn't play XI and don't know how the job works there, so let me stop you before you try to use that tired argument, too.

It's not entitlement for players to want better integration of summons into the kit for a Summoner. I don't even really mind DoTs as filler since Arcanist probably isn't going anywhere as the base class. But it absolutely is not a stretch for players to want even primal-THEMED spells to spend AF stacks on at a minimum. I main the job. The gameplay is smooth. It's got great output, great emergency utility if necessary, but what it doesn't have is coherence in its kit the way other jobs do, and if you think that's up for debate, I really don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by KaerisKlyne

Arguably, is it even really a Summoner at that point? The only pet-related abilities are Rouse, Enkindle, Devotion, and Contagion if you have Garuda out (and even then Contagion is only pet-centric to give Garuda something to do, it could just as easily be a part of my own kit as the caster and there wouldn't be a difference). Summoner does indeed play quite smoothly right now, but outside of 4 skills in a 30+ skill kit, everything is coming from me as the caster while the pet just kind of autos or uses a single extra skill on command while I have GCDs rolling. Don't call me a Summoner if it's a one-and-done with occasional BahaMage shenanigans.

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When I think summoner, having complete control over the entity summoned isn't a necessary part of the concept. It could be, but I think that a summoner that summons a mostly autonomous pet still fits the description.

I can see your point about the pet being a bit underwhelming when it comes to egis, though Bahamut feels pretty special.

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I genuinely believe Arcanist was always meant for Scholar. Everything in the kit outside of the Ruin line of spells falls so perfectly in line with what Scholars are about. I understand the game needs a DoT-based DPS job as an MMO staple, but I don't think SMN was the way to introduce that. DWT and Demi-Baha are steps toward better gameplay for SMN, and I think if we're going to talk about job tweaks, we should be talking about tweaks to the kit that either center on smoother egi control, or the elimination of egi and filler damage for a dedicated summon-centric series of burst trances that lead up to demi summons.

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I'm not really comparing SMN in FF14 with classes from other games, or looking at common MMO tropes. I just like summoner for what it is currently. Smoother egi control is something I completely support, but other than that I play the class for what it is and I don't want to lose it for a thematic change or alteration.

There is an idea that I've mused on before that might solve the issue, although I don't know how realistic it would be to add to the game. If we had subclasses, SE could provide multiple ways of playing a single job. For summoner we might see a DoT subclass and a summon (needs a better name) subclass. The first would be summoner as it is now while the second would be what you're asking for. It could be a nice way to increase class count without requiring the resources needed to create an entirely new class, at least if it's feasible at all.

Make other Primals into oGCDs. Think Yuna from Dissidia. You use Judgement Bolt, Ramuh appears, does Judgement Bolt, then vanishes. Etc.

Coming from a purely casual perspective, I hope they buff Titan-egi especially in terms of enmity and aggro control. Weird how a lot of duty fights in MSQ they seem to be immune to Titan and you're tanking anyways.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Make other Primals into oGCDs. Think Yuna from Dissidia. You use Judgement Bolt, Ramuh appears, does Judgement Bolt, then vanishes. Etc.

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Our Aetherflow stacks being spent for things like this is something I dream about!