Scholar vs Astrologian Mitigation

I'm the one confused by the responses here.
The thread was about who between SCH and AST is the mitigation healer, and it's NocAST. SCH isn't the mitigation healer, but a more flexible healer that have mitigation in its kit.

And I'm not concerned at all about aether flow management. I'm talking about the way it works, wich isn't "doing a rotation between aether flow CD" or "stack everything on top of each other". I keep seeing this everytime people try to compare healers, and you will rarely do something like this. The exemple of essential dignity was about how it's just better to use it when you can instead of exco no matter of good it is. Because using exco mean using one less energy drain used to get that high DPS SCH is about.
There's no earthly start vs indo, because if earthly star is up you don't have to use indo.

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I don't believe that if WHM had Chain Stratagem "everyone would be playing Noct AST" because Chain Stratagem is not the only good thing Scholar brings to the table. That seems to imply that every team would be WHM/Noct Ast.

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Every one is currently playing WHM more than anything so it obviously was an exageration.
What I meant is not having a SCH is more of a matter than having NocAST in the team. Because in the end it's still as stupid good as it was at SB release. SCH is better for more optimised team composition so somehow a lot of people are now really upset about AST higher potencies, even though it's a part of the said more optimised team composition.

SCH has better mitigation than N.Ast. You don't go into ultimate coil with sch because it does more dps, you do it because there's points in the fight where if you don't have a mix of soil, deploy or covenant up every 40-60 seconds you get one-shot/near one-shot by raid AOEs. Indom is also infinitely more flexible than earthly, up twice as frequently, and allows for a larger margin of error in its use.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

if WHM had chain stratagem, everyone would be playing NocAST.

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Bah, It would be unbalanced between healers if Chain Stratagem would go to WHM.
WHM would be top pick for anything.
And then, SCH or AST for the 2nd place.
Because of the Fairy, I'am not sure, AST Noct would be a better pick than SCH.
Fairy give additonal DPS to healers (free regen), so even with the actual cards and the dps of each healer, I think SCH would be the 2nd choice.

I could affirm the exact opposite by using O4S as an exemple. Bahamut is certainly a bad exemple (I'm not the one who brought it to table anyway), the fact that it does a lot of mechanic while being impossible to target play a huge into making sacred soil or fey covenant weight more than they usually do.
But then, would it be really able to make up for the 55% potency loss from using succor instead of aspected helios if 4.1 didn't buff it ? Shields often outweight pourcentage based reduction in terms of mitigation, being able to go largess + fey illumination + succor and be only 5% behind largess + aspected helios seems a much more important factor than fey covenant butt clenching. The fight also see a lot more WHM than DiuAST in this, so its much more about AST losing effectiveness when the raid move a lot more than be less effective period.

So maybe you prefer it that way : every one would still pick SCH if it didn't have on demand shields. This isn't what matter in particular, it's a part of what they do.
But if you pick NocAST, it's because of the shields.

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Fairy give additonal DPS to healers (free regen), so even with the actual cards and the dps of each healer, I think SCH would be the 2nd choice.

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Higher potency per skill does works in a similar fashion, just think of the potency difference between two spell as a free heal and it allow to gain more healer DPS too. you laso have to take into consideration that WHM HoT are actually more potent than AST ones, wich means having WHM over DiuAST is also "free heals".
So with cards on top of this, I'm pretty sure it would favor AST.

But I wasn't saying that as change that should be made, it just mean that SCH is good for what it got outside its mitigation. It's not what makes the job as good as it is currently.

Who cares if sch mitigation is better? In fact, who cares if there spells are stronger overall. As an AST, you might be a bit more gimped as far as DPS power or healing power, but your cards are extremely powerful. SB added exactly what they needed as far as tweaking how their cards work. I can have high up time on aoe DPS cards every fight I've done and still have enough power to DPS myself, and keep the party alive. I prefer shield stance as well because I have more control over the more important parts of fights. Instant cast shield on a tank paired with a White mage instant cast shield pretty much negates tank buster's. I can also shield myself if I'm gonna eat an aoe which has saved me many times. Also, if you save Lightspeed for the most aoe healing intensive parts, it makes it so easy to handle. You also have largesse when needed and synastry for heavy single target healing or parts when damage is split between both tanks. All if this allows us to constantly DPS ourselves and manage cards on cd. With how fights are designed you dont need extra shielding power, you just need to know when to use the plethora of CDs available. AST is a damn fun job and its sad to see it getting bashed so hard. I think you guys should give it more of a chance because if mastered, it's not only hella fun, but super strong.

While I agree with you, where's the AST bashing ?
I may have misunderstood something but I don't feel like someone said Ast was bad here?

Just seemed like it but maybe I misunderstood. Both are jobs are good, but I definitely think that if AST is played well, it can benefit a group more than a sch.

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

Both are jobs are good, but I definitely think that if AST is played well, it can benefit a group more than a sch.

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I would'nt say that, but benefit (with diurnal sect) more than a WHM , yeah totally.

Strict mitigation comparison:

--- SCH ---
Adloquium (single target):
- Shield Potency: 300
- Critical shield potency: 600*

Deployment Tactics (AoE):
- Shield Potency: 300
- Critical shield potency: 600*
*Crit multiplier to take in consideration. Unreliable.

Succor (AoE):
- Shield potency: 225

Sacred Soil (ground AoE):
- Damage reduction: 10%

Fey Covenant (AoE):
- Magic defense: +20% (currently translates to ~7-9% magic damage reduction)

--- Nocturnal AST --- (Potency numbers include the 15% healing buff from the Nocturnal Sect)
Aspected Benefic (single target):
- Shield Potency: 575

Aspected Helios (AoE):
- Shield Potency: 258.75

Collective Unconscious (Self targeted ground AoE):
- Damage reduction: 10%

The Bole* (various):
- Single target: 20% damage reduction
- Enhanced single target: 30% damage reduction
- AoE: 10% damage reduction
*Very low reliability.

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- AST completly crushes SCH in terms of single target shielding. Both in terms of potency and gameplay advantages.
- SCH has the edge regarding AoE shielding because of Deployment Tactics. However, the cooldown on Deployment Tactics gives N.AST the potential to shine more in fights with lots of average raid AoE (such as O6S), thanks to both the slightly better potency on N.A.Helios, but mostly because of Lightspeed which lowers MP consumption and allows for quick double shielding (1st shield > AoE > 2nd shield > AoE).
- The Bole could've been a contender against Fey Covenant, but its unreliability is simply too big of a drawback to ignore.

I have no clue why people try to say "SCH is better!" or "AST is better!" in regards to mitigation. It makes absolutly no sense because their strenghts are in completly different categories and are very dependent on the encounter. The only thing that might do it is Fey Covenent. But its numbers are not really impressive. It'll get better as iLv increases, but still, it's not that big of an edge.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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Hmm...what about Fey Illumination? It's a 10% healing potency buff for SCH. Since the shields are based on the cures, any increase in the cure potency = increase in the shield potency, right?
It has a big CD, but you included Deployment Tactics so shouldn't Fey Illumination count as well?

Because if you use a FI Adlo, that's 330 normal, 660 crit.
FI succor = 247.5

Just worth mentioning.