How can tanking and healing be made more broadly useful in more "role-specific" ways?

The Diabolos Hollow fight in Dun Scaith uses several mechanics to put a definite focus on survival over dps. DpS is good but surviving the fight is more important.

At the start of the fight the Auto-Crit Shield will let Diabolos flatten tanks quickly if they are not in tank stance and don't use cooldowns. If the tanks fall others are usually quick to fall soon after and wiping was very possible.

During the final phase when Diabolos gets the Double-Edge buff that allows for more damage dealt but at the cost of taking massive amounts from the attached DoT so the fight becomes more about the alliance surviving long enough for Diabolos to kill himself once the phase begins.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Extending the maximal encounter time, that's the big difference.

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Sorry, what I meant to ask is what's then changed as to a healer's purpose? You can have an arbitrary time limit creating a set maxima, wherein healers increase maximum encounter time, or a slow descent which produces a scaling maxima, wherein healers increase maximum encounter time. I'm just trying to figure out where the actual change is occurring to how a healer would fit in, in its own feeling of play or as a piece of the larger puzzle, so I can list it.

Would I be correct in thinking that the idea here is that then healing, too, can contribute against DPS checks (by extending the window), in an equitable but distinct way from dealing damage?

If so, on paper that seems pretty neat, pretty solid, but in actuality, I feel like to judge or envision the idea fairly I'd need to know where's the threshold, and what does progression by skill, over the given fight, or over gear look like? Or, more importantly, what healer "throughput", exactly, would the boss be gradually overwhelming? Cure II spam? Cure I? Highest possible burst? HoT maintenance + C1 + periodic Benison? And how would avoid the same issues of "any healing beyond what's necessary to kill it in time is excessive", or gear turning a highest direct heal global + HoT maintenance into alternating highest direct heal with best filler attack + HoT and DoT maintenance? Wouldn't that actually allow for healing to be devalued even more quickly than now? No matter how I run this through my head — and this is probably just my idiocy, but I really can't imagine otherwise — it just feels like the same, but where you spend a long time ramping up to and a long time exceeding what would feel like the intended pace of a fight (or, its healing or mitigation requirements, assuming mitigation were ever on demand rather than just on cooldown/counter), with less interaction with the fight itself.

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand this better.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Little math, then. If the boss deals 50 more DPS than your healer's max HPS and you have 50k HP, what time on average do you have before the boss kills you (and the rest of the team shortly after) ?

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Sorry for my late response, irl things.

That is, in essence, a soft enrage. I feel like this presents some issues though, particularly under the umbrella of all healers being able to heal all content. As it stands now WHM has amazing burst and sustained HPS if it was ever necessary - there is nothing other healers have that can compete with Cure III much less a PoM+Largresse'd Cure III spam while under Thin Air.

Either encounters would be tuned to fit WHM's throughput potential (and WHM is necessary) or they're tuned to AST/SCH (and WHM is still necessary because it can trivialize these healchecks and open a DPS window.)

The solution then becomes giving all healers and healer comps roughly the same sustained HPS, but then we're facing issues with homogenization which a huge portion of the playerbase is against and rightly so.

I just can't see this being a thing personally, nothing without some huge changes to the game which I do not want.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Diabolos Hollow fight in Dun Scaith uses several mechanics to put a definite focus on survival over dps. DpS is good but surviving the fight is more important.

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I saw a Tank get one-shot last night in an extreme because they used a cooldown at the wrong time. Thought a tank buster was an AOE. A simple mistake that a veteran player can make if they haven't done a fight in a minute. But a mistake that dropped him to the floor. That was in the easier extreme, Lakshmi. We recovered, but it served to get everyone's attention.

These mechanics everyone is asking for exist:

Lakshmi Extreme
Susanoo Extreme
Shinryu Extreme
Deltascape Savage, all four versions.
and I assume Ultimate Coil has it too.

Do that content, people. As someone else said, Expert Roulette is not the endgame.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

We can fights like this, but they would be gimmicky like that boss in Bardam. I doubt we could apply this to lots of fights

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Why?! There is nothing preventing this from being the only way the game goes, so having it apply to, lets say, one boss in every dungeon and every third one-boss content (trials) would in no way be a stretch, while it would make a significant difference.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That would actually have the opposite effect. Having more HP doesn't make you easier to heal. So, you'd want enough HP to survive but not too much HP so that healers would have to use several spells to put you out of the debuff window. Unless you tie the damage to the actual max value instead of the ratio of HP, which would be very weird after reverting back to STR for AP.

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I have no idea what your argument here is. This suggestion is not about making healing easier or anything. It's about making healers focus more on healing instead of DPS. And the only way to do that without completely changing the healers is to die their healing to the party DPS in a reverse manner than currently, as in have healing increase overall DPS rather than decrease.

The debuff wouldn't have any window. I honestly don't know where you got that from. After a single attack, the player would already have -1% to their damage. A near-death character would have virtually no damage to offer. The penalty would go from 0% to, let's say, 90% based on the amount of life the player have left, so a healer would want to keep ALL members of the group at high HP consistently, instead of going into bursts here or there. Right now, if a group of mobs goes down reasonably fast, there is never a reason to use Cure/Benefic in trash fights, as spamming Cure II/Benefic II once the tank is low will give more opportunity to deal damage. If the mobs die fast, mana is not a problem after all. If the players health would be tied to their damage, it could be more important for the healers to keep the tanks health at high value consistently, thus casting weaker spells (as overhealing is still pointless) when they get smaller damage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sorry, what I meant to ask is what's then changed as to a healer's purpose? You can have an arbitrary time limit creating a set maxima

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If the "time limit" is based on how much damage people can take and how much the healer can heal, it's not really "arbitrary". As I said, right now, you can be the best healer/tank in the world, it won't change anything about the enrage. Either you DPS enough, of you die in XX minutes.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Would I be correct in thinking that the idea here is that then healing, too, can contribute against DPS checks (by extending the window), in an equitable but distinct way from dealing damage?

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Yes. You see, if you look at adds like Sin Of Meracydia or that add I forgot the name in Singularity Reactor, the more HP they have the more damage they do. But, if they don't "die" it's not an automatic wipe. So, ig you have a good healer, you can survive even if the DPS checked is technically failed.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or, more importantly, what healer "throughput", exactly, would the boss be gradually overwhelming?

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That's a much trickier question, and I admit that it would require heavy changes in how the game is currently designed. And it would probably involve less MP regeneration tools.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

That is, in essence, a soft enrage. I feel like this presents some issues though, particularly under the umbrella of all healers being able to heal all content.

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Sure, healers would still be able to heal all content...but not for the same duration. Technicaly, fights like these are a race, to see who kills the other first. Healer jobs who focus heavily on healing would be like slowing down the boss, while healers with more offensive buffs or personal DPS would take a bigger part in the party's side of the race. The thing is that, again, by healing more, you can't extend the duration of the fight, so a "healing focused" healer is kind of a liability. If there was no hard enrage, apart from speedrunning with DPS that can perfecty hold their own on a very short duration, you could take any type of healer you want.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Why?! There is nothing preventing this from being the only way the game goes, so having it apply to, lets say, one boss in every dungeon and every third one-boss content (trials) would in no way be a stretch, while it would make a significant difference.

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Because I feel this would only be a gimmick to make people think that what they do matters more. Exacly like Gordias made DRK mandatory and PLD near useless just by focusing on magic damage.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

The debuff wouldn't have any window. I honestly don't know where you got that from.

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If I always have to be at full health, as long as the healer can make up for what damage I take, I don't need more HP. And let's take situations like Holmgang, Living Dead, or attacks like Charybdis. Let's suppose a healer than can heal me for 10k with each GCD. If I'm at 1HP with a max HP of 50k, it will require 5 GCD to take me up to full health (and thus, no damage penalty). If I have 30k HP max, only 3GCD will be required to take me back to full damage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because I feel this would only be a gimmick to make people think that what they do matters more. Exacly like Gordias made DRK mandatory and PLD near useless just by focusing on magic damage.

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This is entirely different way of calculating a "victor" that is entirely based on players abilities. Sorry, but if you think this is a gimmick, then you are effectively calling winning a battle through DPS a gimmick. And that it clearly is not.

What is a gimmick and what is not depends entirely on how often it is used. If used on a single boss in the game, it would be a gimmick, yes, but if used regularly, it would be a part of the system. Just like stacking mechanics are not gimmicks, cause many bosses across the game use them.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If I always have to be at full health, as long as the healer can make up for what damage I take, I don't need more HP.

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How is that different from now?! Unless you are one-hitted, larger HP pool matters only for two things. When the healer needs to heal and for HP-based skills like Benediction (100% HP) or The Blackest Night (20% or 10% of max HP shield).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And let's take situations like Holmgang, Living Dead, or attacks like Charybdis.

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Irrelevant, as mitigating damage loss would be part of making the most out of the system. Using these as arguments is like arguing that making a DPS based meta have some troubles because it makes players want to use skills look Blood for Blood.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Let's suppose a healer than can heal me for 10k with each GCD. If I'm at 1HP with a max HP of 50k, it will require 5 GCD to take me up to full health (and thus, no damage penalty). If I have 30k HP max, only 3GCD will be required to take me back to full damage.

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Irrelevant, because that's exactly what this prevents. Healers will not WANT to wait until you are low on HP to heal you. Quite the opposite, the less health you have (with the same defense) the bigger your penalty will be with the same 10000HP hit you get, because it will be a bigger chunk of your HP. That means that the healer will want to heal you even more often.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, healers would still be able to heal all content...but not for the same duration. Technicaly, fights like these are a race, to see who kills the other first. Healer jobs who focus heavily on healing would be like slowing down the boss, while healers with more offensive buffs or personal DPS would take a bigger part in the party's side of the race. The thing is that, again, by healing more, you can't extend the duration of the fight, so a "healing focused" healer is kind of a liability. If there was no hard enrage, apart from speedrunning with DPS that can perfecty hold their own on a very short duration, you could take any type of healer you want.

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This sounds a lot like the current meta now, you even used the phrase "a healing focused healer is kind of a liability" which is very much the overarching concept which defines the meta right now. I see your idea of replacing healer DPS with buffs but the one other MMO I've played (eso) does this and while I'm sure it could be more fun in FFXIV this kind of play stagnates quickly in pug content.

Right now on WHM if I get a group with slow DPS I can turn on the afterburners (PoM, Cleric) and in an AoE situation I can outdps most other classes anyways. Even single target I can do reasonable dps. The issue with swapping that for buffs is that there are a ton of really poor players out there in almost all content who would basically invalidate any benefit those buffs conferred. Almost everyone AST main has a story of throwing Balance on themselves or a WAR because the actual DPSers in a dungeon were so bad there was no point buffing them. Imagine that but without tank and healer DPS being impressive enough to pick up the slack.

I don't mean to play devil's advocate with your idea its just as a healer main I can't see enjoying this playstyle. Its taking away healer utility but not giving anything back.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

This is entirely different way of calculating a "victor" that is entirely based on players abilities. Sorry, but if you think this is a gimmick, then you are effectively calling winning a battle through DPS a gimmick. And that it clearly is not.

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When everybody has HP and the main reason we even face foes is to kill them, winning a battle through killing things is not a gimmick. You'd have to create a whole new explnation on why we don't kill them anymore. The kind of explantion that works in PvP where the goal is generally not to kill.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

How is that different from now?!

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It's not, but this is exactly hte kind things we want to fix.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Irrelevant, because that's exactly what this prevents. Healers will not WANT to wait until you are low on HP to heal you.

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Healers also do not want to spam heal all the time because they will simply over heal and burn through their MP much faster. And each time someone dies they will also suffer an additionnal damage penalty until the healers uses more GCD to bring them back to full.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This sounds a lot like the current meta now, you even used the phrase "a healing focused healer is kind of a liability" which is very much the overarching concept which defines the meta right now.

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I was describing the current type of enrage :p

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Right now on WHM if I get a group with slow DPS I can turn on the afterburners (PoM, Cleric) and in an AoE situation I can outdps most other classes anyways.

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But your personal DPS throughout the fight has a lesser chance of saving the run than if your healing capacities would allow the whole party to deal damage for one more minute. Keep in mind that I don't want to remove all DPS capacites from healers, just to give them a way to contribute in winning even by focusing on healing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But your personal DPS throughout the fight has a lesser chance of saving the run than if your healing capacities would allow the whole party to deal damage for one more minute. Keep in mind that I don't want to remove all DPS capacites from healers, just to give them a way to contribute in winning even by focusing on healing.

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Oh I totally get what you're headed for, I mean that's basically why we're all here in this thread after all :)

I just see way too many awful DPS players to be alright with this sort of playstyle. I don't think it fits in with the hypercasual playerbase and I specifically believe it to be a disservice to healers.