Suggestions for bringing DRK up to par, and QoL changes.

"Damage taken" ceases to be a meaningful comparison whenever Defiance is involved, because you're then comparing eHP increases via mitigation to eHP increases via increasing actual HP - which is why, to do any meaningful comparison, you have to use "percentage of max HP" as your start point and end point.

Honestly though, the current design is just bad and makes any comparison contingent on unfair assumptions that don't reflect actual gameplay. The starting point I'd personally like to see is for Fell Cleave and Inner Beast to be separate skills available from either stance, and Rampart removed from role skills in favour of bringing back native Rampart/Shadowskin.

That doesn't leave things balanced but it at least gives you a start point.

Except it's not exactly fair to attribute the eHP gain to IB when it's clearly due to turning off Defiance.

IB is comparable to Rampart, that's what it was originally trying to mimic for war. So with rampart and IB it puts war in a really good spot (mainly because they don't have to use IB now). I'm not really of the opinion that they should take away abilities, and simply replacing rampart with shadow skin on drk doesn't put them in a better position except by knocking war down a peg. Drk needs another CD, whether it be a change to dark mind or something else. Bring DRK up to the level of PLD/WAR. All 3 tanks need to be relatively equal defensively. All 3 tanks need to provide relatively close raid utility. And all 3 tanks need to do relatively close damage. If one or more is skewed in favor of a particular tank then there will always be imbalance and they'll always be taken over the others.

I mean you can repeat it with a hypothetical version of IB that's decoupled from Defiance, and no Grit on the DRK.

In that case, the WAR is healed from 42760 to 48750, then takes 40000 damage after the IB reduction, winding up with 8750 HP.
The DRK's shield reduces the hit from 50000 to 38600, leaving the DRK with 4150 HP.

If the tankbuster is bumped up to 60000 damage, the WAR survives with 750 HP, and the DRK is dead.

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Originally Posted by Crater

If the tankbuster is bumped up to 60000 damage, the WAR survives with 750 HP, and the DRK is dead.

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And clearly both would need to use an additional CD :p

Still not vastly more powerful. Which was really my only contention.

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Originally Posted by Crater

I mean you can repeat it with a hypothetical version of IB that's decoupled from Defiance, and no Grit on the DRK.

In that case, the WAR is healed from 42760 to 48750, then takes 40000 damage after the IB reduction, winding up with 8750 HP.
The DRK's shield reduces the hit from 50000 to 38600, leaving the DRK with 4150 HP.

If the tankbuster is bumped up to 60000 damage, the WAR survives with 750 HP, and the DRK is dead.

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You guys are just splitting hairs at this point.

Defiance+IB= 20% mitigation, 25% HP boost=156% effective HP
Grit+TBN= 20% mitigation, 20% HP= 150% effective HP.
ShieldOath+Shell= 20%+25% Mitigation=166% effective HP

IB has a heal attached, TBN can be cast on other people, shelltron is the strongest but has the 1 hit onry downside.

They are friggin equal. Of all the things to QQ about FFS. The differences between these things are drops in the ocean. You can concoct a specific number of HP and damage type that will kill any of those but leave the others alive. Whooptie doo. Its so plainly obvious SE designed these to serve the same function and they do their jobs.

I agree, based on the simple fact no one has really asked for TBN to be stronger (HP%-wise), only for it to have a little bit longer duration. As I originally stated, they all have the own advantages and drawbacks, and in this way they are mostly equal. More equal than not, I will contend at least.

But, I think bolstering DRK's defense in other areas would do a lot to improve the feeling of using TBN in general and help mask the gear-scaling vs damage-scaling issue.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Defiance+IB= 20% mitigation, 25% HP boost=156% effective HP
Grit+TBN= 20% mitigation, 20% HP= 150% effective HP.
ShieldOath+Shell= 20%+25% Mitigation=166% effective HP

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More HP doesn't offer its full benefit if you don't receive increased healing, so the calculation on DRK is wrong.

And it doesn't change the fact that aaaaaaaall of this came from someone saying that they would have no mitigation tool for more frequent TB if the CD on Vengeance and Raw Intuition are increased...which is, objectively, false.

Effective HP is a simple measure that says how much damage you have to take before you die. Those numbers don't have anything to do with receiving healing to see benefit. Conv and defiance are the only skills where curing is required to see any value gain. Drk's 'HP' is a shield which also doesn't need healing to get benefit anyway. Not sure where youre going with that.

The lack of mitigation has been discussed repeatedly at this point and only applies to deliverance war because IB is locked complicating the all to frequent and sweeping generalization 'tank mitigation comparisons' that continually cite war as having the 'best mitigation' but anyone with a brain can see that conclusion is highly dependent on tanking with or without tank stance. But the forums aren't known for their nuanced views.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And it doesn't change the fact that aaaaaaaall of this came from someone saying that they would have no mitigation tool for more frequent TB if the CD on Vengeance and Raw Intuition are increased...which is, objectively, false.

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No, it started with you saying IB is "much more powerful" than TBN :p

Increased cd times for Vengeance and Raw Intuition are entirely unwarranted. A mere 5 sec difference in duration equates to a minute longer CD? Uhh.. No lol. The problem with Shadow Wall isn't Vengeance. If anything, the problem is Anticipation since it quite obviously replaced Dark Dance. If war kept Raw then drk should've been allowed to keep Dark Dance. Or at minimum they should've changed Dark Mind to compensate. This is devs fault, not warriors lol

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Originally Posted by Aana

Effective HP is a simple measure that says how much damage you have to take before you die. Those numbers don't have anything to do with receiving healing to see benefit.

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Yes, they do, because once you're under your normal maximum HP, then having more HP is useless. And since your calculation for WAR includes Defiance in the eHP, you can't just ignore that it's a huge difference when compared to TBN.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

No, it started with you saying IB is "much more powerful" than TBN :p

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Its effect still is.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The problem with Shadow Wall isn't Vengeance.

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Considering that Vengeance is equal or better that Shadow Wall in every aspect, it kinda is (As is Sentinel). WAR kept Raw Intuition, DRK kept Dark Mind. Same CD, same single type of damage, and comparable mitigation.