May I present, "LMG - Light Machinist Guide for PvP"

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Or, you know, don't, and sustain your peak damage per shot early and indefinitely and still keep a strong cc skill in the pocket for both offensive burst or defensive application. . . Sounds like we've come full circle to when I said, "while there are times to do it, don't always do it."

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If you're speaking only about using stun gun for burst, then sure, there's niche situations to use it in shatter only and we're in agreement about this.

To your original point about never pre-loading ammo - it doesn't matter since you aren't losing damage. In fact you want to pre-load ammo in shatter because in a best case scenario you get to turn stun gun into bonus points for your team. If you can't, then no harm done, because you didn't lose damage by pre-loading ammo.

Okay, you're right.

/s

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Originally Posted by Geryth

Snip

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The use of Stun Gun is a big deal, and I emphasize again, it should not be used so hap haphazardly as a DPS CD. So let's move away from Stun Gun for a second and measure out the potencies of the weaponskills. I'm going to go off of 5 GCDs, since if we preload ammo it will take us 5 GCDs to reach 50 heat if we do not use move ammo in between there, AND we do NOT use Stun Gun as a CD

Pre-Loaded Ammo
Slipshot (750) >> Slugshot (1000) >> Cleanshot (1250) >> Hot Shot (750) >> Hot Shot (750) >> [We can now Wildfire] >> Ammo x3 during this rotation (250) = 5250 total potency

No Ammo:
Hot Shot (750) >> Hot Shot (750) >> (We can Wildfire now) Heated Slipshot (10000) >> Heated Slugshot (1250) >> Heated Cleanshot (1500) >> Ammo x3 for each Heated shot (250) = 6000 total potency

So if we ignore Stun Gun all the same, you can see how Pre-loading Ammo not only delays your 50 heat, but it is less potency over all within this short span of time. Because not having ammo loaded at the start, we can reach 50 heat and use the stronger Heated shots a lot faster, which as we can see, are a higher potency. This also allows use to use Wildfire much sooner than if we Pre-load ammo [Different topic as to when to pop WF]

Pre-loading ammo essentially requires that you use Stun Gun to get into Overheat for it to be effect. Yes that will net you more DPS, but now you are down one of your most versititle tools in PVP for the next 60 seconds. Within that time, any of the scenarios that I have present can happen. Using Stun Gun at the very start requires
-That you're attacking Ice at the very start
-You're attacking an opponent with no back up
-After the ice breaks all three teams do not fight and leave you alone (or at the very least do not fight you) for the next 60 seconds

So you're banking on a lot of variables to be in your favor to use Stun Gun in a hap hazard way. This is a PVP setting, thus you want to use your CC in a way that can benefit the team at large, and not to mention it can potentially save your hide from getting killed yourself.

The data you present is all against Striking Dummies. There is a difference of doing damage to a Striking Dummy, and actually fighting a multitude of players who want to win. It's like saying a DPS job can have X amount of damage on a Striking Dummy for a fight, but once they actually enter the fight and have to deal with mechanics, that fight will test them how well they use their skills and abilities effectively, and not so hap haphazardly. Just like PVE will test players with mechanics, movement, damage, and so forth, PVP will test all of this with actual players that are pitted to fight one another.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

So now if you're a pre-loader you can have your cake and eat it too, in any mode

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Not true. In Feast you are given two crates to destroy for a buff. In this, a MCH can use Hot Shot twice and be at 50 heat before either team engages each other, so they now have access to their Heated shots. If you pre-load ammo, you’re denying yourself heat, and now you have to rely on attacking the enemy players for 50 heat, which puts you behind on DPS.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

The use of Stun Gun is a big deal, and I emphasize again, it should not be used so hap haphazardly as a DPS CD.

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No one is using stun gun haphazardly. If I can steal ice points with it, I will. That's not every game. That's not even every time an ice spawns in an ideal location, if the amount of enemies + allies is not favorable. You're speaking as if I just go blow stun gun for overheating whenever I feel like. Please read my other posts.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

So let's move away from Stun Gun for a second and measure out the potencies of the weaponskills. I'm going to go off of 5 GCDs, since if we preload ammo it will take us 5 GCDs to reach 50 heat if we do not use move ammo in between there, AND we do NOT use Stun Gun as a CD

Pre-Loaded Ammo
Slipshot (750) >> Slugshot (1000) >> Cleanshot (1250) >> Hot Shot (750) >> Hot Shot (750) >> [We can now Wildfire] >> Ammo x3 during this rotation (250) = 5250 total potency

No Ammo:
Hot Shot (750) >> Hot Shot (750) >> (We can Wildfire now) Heated Slipshot (10000) >> Heated Slugshot (1250) >> Heated Cleanshot (1500) >> Ammo x3 for each Heated shot (250) = 6000 total potency

So if we ignore Stun Gun all the same, you can see how Pre-loading Ammo not only delays your 50 heat, but it is less potency over all within this short span of time. Because not having ammo loaded at the start, we can reach 50 heat and use the stronger Heated shots a lot faster, which as we can see, are a higher potency. This also allows use to use Wildfire much sooner than if we Pre-load ammo [Different topic as to when to pop WF]

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You made the exact same mistake as Lace. Your theory craft math is wrong, please my other posts and you'll see why. Pre-loading ammo, if anything, is more damage.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Pre-loading ammo essentially requires that you use Stun Gun to get into Overheat for it to be effect.

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Absolutely not true. Please read my other posts to see why pre-loading ammo does not require using stun gun to get a leg up on DPS. Everything else you said about this is invalid because using stun gun is not required.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

The data you present is all against Striking Dummies. There is a difference of doing damage to a Striking Dummy, and actually fighting a multitude of players who want to win. It's like saying a DPS job can have X amount of damage on a Striking Dummy for a fight, but once they actually enter the fight and have to deal with mechanics, that fight will test them how well they use their skills and abilities effectively, and not so hap haphazardly. Just like PVE will test players with mechanics, movement, damage, and so forth, PVP will test all of this with actual players that are pitted to fight one another.

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The most important data, and the data I'm focusing on, is the data that shows pre-loading ammo is not a DPS loss. We're talking in the first 10 seconds of a game for pre-loaded ammo and opening with hot shots to basically even out and become the same at this point. This time frame is negligible in front lines and against striking dummies or players in actual PvP. The only "skills" being tested by PvP is re-ordering a few taps on your keyboard in a mere 10 second window at the start of a match.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Not true. In Feast you are given two crates to destroy for a buff. In this, a MCH can use Hot Shot twice and be at 50 heat before either team engages each other, so they now have access to their Heated shots. If you pre-load ammo, you’re denying yourself heat, and now you have to rely on attacking the enemy players for 50 heat, which puts you behind on DPS.

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A great and fair point. You could forego attacking crates but that's probably a bad idea. You're denying yourself starting out a feast match with heat status if you pre-load and use those pre-loaded bullets needlessly on crates. Since these matches are solo only, that's not even something your team could plan around. You are right - don't pre-load ammo in feast.

Alrighty so, how exactly is the math wrong?

The sample I gave was the bare bones numbers of the Weapon Skills with the added damage from each ammo. This is based on 5 weapon skills each, as the time it would take for Pre-Loaded to reach 50 Heat would be 5 weapons kills. We can use the Potency of the Weapon Skills as a base for the damage calculated, as damage is based on the skill's Potency. In this way, we can clearly see that there is more Potency going out with empty ammo at the start, simply because it uses the Heated skills as soon as possible, where as Pre-Loaded is forced to use regular skills. You cannot deny that you get higher numbers from Heated skills VS. Regular skills within the span of these 5 weapon skills respectively. In this example we are not using wildfire, and we are not using Between the eyes, no other damage modifiers but the ammo that is available. This is the measure of the start of a match, your first five weapon skills that you are using.

A side note that the Empty Ammo sample allows the player to use Wildfire at a much earlier time than Loaded sample. To get the most damage from WF, you want to use the Heated skills since they have a higher potency, which means that they will do more damage than the standard weapon skills, which means a bigger burst. BUT since WF can be used at any point of the rotation to skew the numbers, I have excluded that, and again, working with the bare bones of these rotations.

Now then, I will provide one sample of each method. Both samples executed 11 weapon skill hits respectively. Again, we are only using weapon skills and ammo. Nothing else. Let's take a look:

Pre-Loaded:

https://imgur.com/a/Oicw7

Calculated damage of 11 weapon skills: 15,212

Empty Start:

https://imgur.com/a/jozvl

Calculated damage of 11 weapon skills: 15,370

As we can see, both on paper, and in practice on a dummy, the numbers show that in the span of 11 weapon skills, the very start of the match as you are referring to, pre-loading ammo does less damage. It's a fairly simple concept that when you Pre-Load ammo, you are firing off Normal skills, where the Empty Gun start allows the player access to the Heated skills much faster.

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Originally Posted by Geryth

Only by two seconds

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Depends. It delays the burst by 4.5 seconds if you're planning on building up heat manually. Non-heated shots are hardly fatal even with ammo, so setting up your heat gauge to 50 ASAP means you can start dealing higher potencies in shorter delay, which can dramatically reduce the chance someone gets a heal in time before they hit 0 HP. The 3 shots at the beginning are just sending out a distress beacon to any healers in their party (which are staring at health bars) that you are hitting that target, and gives them ample time to react, regen, and shield that target.

Just to set the stage, I am referring to frontlines in this post.

To define terms, "full burst" in this case is squeezing as much damage into a small time window as possible. Since we can fit 5 ammo'd shots within a wildfire, there are 3 different burst rotations depending on preparation and willingness to use Stun Gun. Logical MCH burst is during wildfire, with a huge spike at the end.

#1: Heated Wildfire without stun gun (no overheat): 5 Heated, Ammo'd shots + BTE and Wildfire. Split x1, Slug x2, Clean x2, 1k BTE = 8750 potency under wildfire.
So 8750 + 2187 (WF potency) = 10937 potency in 7 seconds, and specifically 1750 + 1000 + 2187 = 4937 potency in the last second, which is a huge potency spike at the end. Putting BTE as close to the end of wildfire for maximum spike.
Preparation: 50 heat, H.Split already used (so slug shot ready to use)

#2: Overheated Wildfire without stun gun: Same rotation as above, but a lot more preparation for the 10% boost from overheat.
Preparation: 90 heat, trigger overheat with H.Split, begin first rotation.
One way to obtain this preparation is to use 2 hot shots, then do heated shots until you use 2 cooldowns (assuming constant GCD use). 3 rotations of Split>Slug>Clean with cooldowns inbetween will leave you at 90 heat, ready to begin the combo.
Note: This one is a bit impractical, but since overheating resets you to 0 heat, it's very predictable and can be planned around, and allows for overheated Stun Gun (which does 10% more damage).
Burst: The same as #1 rotation, but 10% boosted from overheat.

3 ammo into Stun Gun burst: Same wildfire as the first rotation, but Stun + BTE initiates the burst. This is more of a 10-second burst since it utilizes 9 (!) ammo. Technically you can get 7 GCDs in overheat if all shots are ammo'd.
Preparation: any heat w/ Gauss, 3 ammo pre-loaded, 1000 TP.
Rotation example: 3 ammo loaded + 1000 TP > Split (QR) > Slug (QR + Stun>overheat) > Clean (BTE) > Split (WF) > Slug (QR) > Clean (QR) > Split (QR) > Slug (QR) > Clean (overheat ends, WF detonates). Image of rotation
Burst: 17,156 potency in 10 seconds, 4k of which is all at the same moment in the last second.

pictures of the rotations/burst below
https://i.imgur.com/nvOPDZp.png
(Edit: Oops, labeled rotation #2 incorrectly)

There are advantages/disadvantages to all 3 of these bursts. #1 requires almost no setup time and no stun gun, #2 requires a lot of setup but does very high burst without wasting stun gun, and #3 requires stun gun, but sustains the high DPS of rotation #2 for 3 extra seconds.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Alrighty so, how exactly is the math wrong?

(snip)

Pre-Loaded:
Calculated damage of 11 weapon skills: 15,212

Empty Start:
Calculated damage of 11 weapon skills: 15,370

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This is where the math is wrong. 11 weaponskills is not equivalent in this case, as preloaded ammo gains you a weaponskill due to the bonus 3x ammo'd weaponskills at the start (all at 1.5 recast).

Speed is not an ignorable stat when it comes to DPS.

Speed isn't ignorable, no, but now we're trying to compensate for damage with time and tip the scales. Whether you pull of 5 GCDs faster or not, those values wouldn't be impacted by how fast you did them. Using the base potencies - again with ammo on JUST the shots alone, normal shots are not going to do the damage of heated shots, plain and simple. That preloaded shot combo WITH ammo, is only going to match the heated combo without ammo, which of course means a heated combo with ammo is still obviously ahead. BUT, again as I worked out, it's clear that within 3 GCDs (which would be a full preloaded combo vs 2 Hot Shots and a Heated Split Shot with ammo) preloading does more damage, but at 5GCDs, the Dual Hot Shot method proves stronger. You can sit on the procs til you almost lose them, but the damage doesn't change. In the end, what it really becomes is "Do I want to reach my max damage potential outside of Overheat right away or not?" Preloading locks you out of heat generation. No heat = No heated shots. No heated shots = lower damage than heated shots. And within 5 GCDs, that wouldn't change even if you use emotes between each shot.

Another scenario, this time 3 GCDs: if I Hot Shot>Hot Shot>Cooldown, that's 750>750>1000. . . Same as if I Hot Shot>Hot Shot>H-Split. . . But the first one is impractical because I'd just waste half the heat I generated, forcing me back to unheated shots and discouraging ammo usage, putting me in a position where now I'm looking at a Slug Shot (1000) vs a Heated Slug Shot (1250). And that's where the variances would begin. Still wouldn't matter how fast I got there.

I must be missing something here.. Are you guys talking anout pre-loading with 0 Heat or with over 50 Heat? And if it is 0 Heat.. what's the issue?

Feast: Hot Shot + Hot Shot on box = done
Frontlines: Hot Shot + Hot Shot on first targetable thing = done

It's only 2 GCDs and then go wailin' xD

I see almost every MCH preload in Frontlines and I'm not sure why. Sure, when they start the first 5secs they'll be stronger but I'll already be at 50 heat ready to blast away for the whole match. Preloaded 0 Barrel combo will never be enough to kill somebody especially in Feast.

Speaking of Feast, if you preload won't you basically be unable to attack in an effort to save ammo for a burst? Unlike having 50 heat off of boxes and preloading at 50 heat which would undoubtedly be stronger than without.. And in that sense not preloading and instead using just 2 GCDs to get 50 then loading on a crate would actually be faster than preloading at 0 heat. A whole 9 something seconds.

In Feast, especially Ranked, you will usually have more than enough time to get 50 heat, Reload 3x and get TP back because people don't ever rush in immediately.


This applies to Frontline as well. Use Hot Shot on the closest crystal to you. If not, pop an enemy player 2x and run. They won't get to you. Never be running around with 0 Heat. And there's really no excuse to not have 50 or over at any point.

The 10 people hitting the crystal at your base do not need your burst. Just pop it 2x and get ready for battle somewhere else. That's kinda why I don't understand the argument here.. There should never ever ever be an opportunity to not have 50 heat. Feast? Pop 2x. Unless you pop Stun Gun(don't), 3 ammo wont kill ever. Especially with a healer who's experienced. You can't even kill while heated so like.. Yeah lol

How about this:
-Preloaded 0 Heat: 1,000 + 1,250 + 1,500 + 750 + 750 = 5,250 after 5 GCD(9.36sec? cant remember base GCD)

-Preloaded 50 Heat: 1,250 + 1,500 + 1,750 + 1,000 + 1,250 = 6,750 after 5 GCD.

Both can be prepped before the fight begins with TP perfectly fine. I do the Heated way it all the time in 8v8 so I know it can be done anywhere else.

5,250 to 6,750 in the same amount of time? Thats big don't you think?

PS: I'm agreeing with Lace xD

PS PS: Why not take it a step further? Preloaded at 0 vs Preloaded at 50. With you starting at 0, you will be forced to use Hot Shot 2x without ammo. With 50 however, you will be able to use extra ammo and in turn, attack quicker

So how about a test for how much potential within that 9.36secs?:
-Preloaded 0 Heat: 1,000 + 1,250 + 1,500 + 750 + 750 = 5,250 after 9.36s

-Preloaded 50 Heat: 1,250 + 1,500 + 1,750 + 1,250 + 1,500 +1,750 = 9,000 after 9secs, almost double the damage

Hey why not take advantage of that 0.36s? +1,250!

That's 10,250 compared to 5,250 in the same amount of time. Basically double at that point. And again, both preppable before the fight.

I think I can buy the argument that preloading in frontlines only has merits, as small ice are often viable targets at the first (and only the first) pop of the match.

In contrast your first instance of player contact in frontlines tends to be alliance v alliance scaled, with a lot of long range poking and not a lot of commitment to engagements. Against good players you're not exactly going to be wading in kill opportunities to the extent that your first couple of GCDs against players are that critical. Not to mention having to aggressively close into melee range to land stun gun is suicidal in frontlines in a situation where neither side has committed to engaging, you'll be marked for focus and picked apart unless your alliance as a whole is already winning the fight and pushing them back.

You'll have to forgive me if this has already been brought up, but I don't have time to sift through all the math and unrelated posts about Feast. I'd also just play bard instead since they do almost everything better.