The Devs should hire players to test/give Job feedback

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Is this coming from the community that failed to understand the changes to WHM and considered it utter trash without even testing it?

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Well, yes. WHM still has major issues, but the only reason people quieted down about it is because SCH actually got hit out of nowhere with nonsensical nerfs, to the point where they're now getting shut out of raid groups almost as hard as WHM did during the last few months of Alexander. And the other healer being in a bad spot somehow automatically means that the other healer with questionable job identity has good long-term design.

I guarantee you the whining about Plenary Indulgence would be 100x louder if SCH was still guaranteed a raid spot like it was in HW.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Is this coming from the community that failed to understand the changes to WHM and considered it utter trash without even testing it?

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Yeah, Plenary Indulgence and lilies were so well-executed that they totally didn't undergo any changes yesterday; a-yup.

I think of PTS as too many chefs in kitchen. It doesn't help ESO one bit either, they are constantly riddled with bugs and imbalance and having multiple hotfix or maintenance patches.

I pay them to test the game... why would they pay me? One of my favorite things about FFXI and FFXIV has always been trying to exploit whatever they missed until it's patched. There once was a time in SE's past when they had to fix the value of a junk item that was sold by a vendor for 100 Gil, but it was also the turn-in item for a repeatable quest that awarded you 500 Gil. It may not be the "best way" but they always do get around to plugging the holes and we always get some free entertainment in the interim.

I thought I would shed some light on other game's testing practices.

World of Warships - This game uses a group of non paid players under a strict NDA to test new ships, these players are called Supertesters. These ships are designed in house and under an initial balance, then they are given to the Supertesters. These ships are used in the actual live version of the game and tested "in the wild". These ships could have abilities or stats that are completely foreign to the normal player base.

If they have new maps or game modes(think trials and raids) they are put on the public test server after internal testing has been completed. You are usually given ships appropriate to the things that need testing. They also give you rewards on the live server for testing things out on the PTR.

Eve Online - The PTR is nearly always open for this game. The devs routinely make copies of your live characters onto the PTR so that you are nearly up to date when you test things. They also have many ships and items for sale in any location for extremely cheap. This allows any player to test out ship and module designs(target dummy rotations) or practice their PVP with a friend or group.

When the devs have a large change coming(think expansion) they put the changes on the PTR and invite players to test things with them. There is usually a large turnout to these events as it is a way to interact with the actual devs designing the game. They also sometimes give out rewards on the live servers for these events.

These two fairly different games have one thing in common in their testing procedures, they involve the public. Others have pointed out that other companies do that as well with varying degrees of success. SE could utilize this approach as well but it would take a change in development philosophy. From what I have seen in both FFXI and XIV Square uses a very closed development system and it has hurt them many times.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Yeah, Plenary Indulgence and lilies were so well-executed that they totally didn't undergo any changes yesterday; a-yup.

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But the MP changes were well executed and on point, yet no1 saw that because they were too busy complaining or ignoring how bad SCH got the short end of the stick or how actually WAR got the axe.
But I mean it's ok 15% crit and 6 fell cleave would blind anyone I suppose.
That said we as a community times and times again have demostrated a lack of sight on balance or lack of creativity, so why should we the one pulling the shot?

And TBH why should we PAY for a work that ppl are PAIED for?

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I don't understand why MMO developers don't get some mathematicians on their payroll. It seems they always miss the mark on some basic math when it comes to buffs/nerfs that the community than calculates out on the first few days after patch release.

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I mean we also had situations like the community being blatantly wrong on Monk.

I personally think they test the jobs and abilities for balance more than anything else. They can screw up jobs but what matters is if they actually listen to their customers.

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Originally Posted by Xandos

When the devs have a large change coming(think expansion) they put the changes on the PTR and invite players to test things with them. There is usually a large turnout to these events as it is a way to interact with the actual devs designing the game. They also sometimes give out rewards on the live servers for these events.

These two fairly different games have one thing in common in their testing procedures, they involve the public. Others have pointed out that other companies do that as well with varying degrees of success. SE could utilize this approach as well but it would take a change in development philosophy. From what I have seen in both FFXI and XIV Square uses a very closed development system and it has hurt them many times.

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EVE is a completely different animal since it's PvP, and even a minor change in the game balance can destroy millions of dollars in "real money"

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I think of PTS as too many chefs in kitchen. It doesn't help ESO one bit either, they are constantly riddled with bugs and imbalance and having multiple hotfix or maintenance patches.

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Most people usually go to a PTS with the understanding that there are going to be bugs and that nothing there will be perfect. They're usually implemented because players can pick up on issues when handling a part of the game where a hired tester might miss it (i.e. Gust Slash) or how a system isn't as good as it should be because of players not implementing it in the same way as a hired tester would (i.e. WHM Lillies).

It wouldn't be as necessary if jobs weren't the lenses through which we see the game.