[dev1206] Class Reforms: why the 15/11 limit?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

SE's idea of hate and enmity is a stupid one, in most cases it holds you back from doing your best, yes some may consider it strategical and tactical but it really isn't, standing around for 10 seconds after I cast a powerful spell is no fun.

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I wouldn't say that's not a fun/important aspect.

I agree if you're saying FFXI was too extreme in that regard, but having a bit of it is a good thing for me.
Sorry if I use WoW once again as an example, but over the last years, "enmity" there changed so much up to the point i hardly ever matters anymore.
Sometimes you can even argue why using a threat meter, most of the times you have no reason to hold back (I'm generalizing of course).
In FFXI it's the opposite, you have to hold back too many times, and not being able to express your full potential becomes frustrating and yes, that's not fun.

But why should we jump from one extreme into the other? Is the world really black & white?
Why not aiming for something in between these extremes?
Somethings that makes enmity matter, that makes your holding back capabilities matter, that makes it into a strategic element of your battles but, at the same time, not as frustrating/annoying as it can often be in FFXI?
Or am I asking for too much?

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

That is what I think is going to happen, but if you look at Stone, you can reduce stone evasion. Obviously it's not enough information to determine anything, but you can at least hope they are keeping elemental weaknesses.

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I hope also they keep elemental weakness but also hope they update the wheel to take into account the lack of water damage spells.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

I wouldn't say that's not a fun/important aspect.

I agree if you're saying FFXI was too extreme in that regard, but having a bit of it is a good thing for me.
Sorry if I use WoW once again as an example, but over the last years, "enmity" there changed so much up to the point i hardly ever matters anymore.
Sometimes you can even argue why using a threat meter, most of the times you have no reason to hold back (I'm generalizing of course).
In FFXI it's the opposite, you have to hold back too many times, and not being able to express your full potential becomes frustrating and yes, that's not fun.

But why should we jump from one extreme into the other? Is the world really black & white?
Why not aiming for something in between these extremes?
Somethings that makes enmity matter, that makes your holding back capabilities matter, that makes it into a strategic element of your battles but, at the same time, not as frustrating/annoying as it can often be in FFXI?
Or am I asking for too much?

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Yea WoW is more about getting the highest DPS scores and that is where you have most of the fun playing as a mage type.

FF onthe other hand is about holding back and releasing that power at the right moment.

I suppose both have their place, I do prefer the first though because I like the competition between DPSers, we even see that in this game between MRD and LNC, hopefully SE balance it enough to make other classes competitive as well.

This concept is alien to FF11 players and they turn their nose up at the idea but being on the top of a DPS list does make you feel like you are truely excelling at your class.

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster. all this being said i really hope that s.e can make me eat my words with this reform but sadly i just dont see that happening.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I hope also they keep elemental weakness but also hope they update the wheel to take into account the lack of water damage spells.

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The removal of water is another factor that made me question the possibility of abolishing weaknesses. They didn't state anything of course but it does leave you wondering.

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Originally Posted by lenethlockheed

good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster.

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except I'm going to and I'm going to enjoy every bit of it. please dont assume.

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Originally Posted by lenethlockheed

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster.

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and the award goes to..... LOL

*this guy reminds me of Kilta Firelotus*

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I hope also they keep elemental weakness but also hope they update the wheel to take into account the lack of water damage spells.

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Maybe I misunderstood you, but that doesn't really make sense.
It's a game with 6 elements (technically with 8...), adjusting the wheel to make it so it works with just 5 doesn't make sense.
And removing one element from the game completely doesn't make sense either.
It would be easier to just ADD a water spell to the game.

Which *hint hint* they couldn't do so far. And why couldn't they?
Simple: because they had already reached the limit of 15 actions for both THM and CNJ.
Now if things were like I said, it wouldn't have mattered.
But since they have to STRICTLY FOLLOW the 15 limits, this is what you get.

It's exactely what I was trying to say in the first posts, pretty good example.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

The removal of water is another factor that made me question the possibility of abolishing weaknesses. They didn't state anything of course but it does leave you wondering.

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It's exactely what I wanted to say.
The things that made me afraid of the possible removal of elemental weaknesses are

1) Those spells aren't concentrated on a single job anymore. You can't make "elemental weaknesses" matter a lot in a scenario where only one of two jobs can use the element
that enemy is weak to. In such a scenario you're *FORCED*, from a gamedesign point of view, to either make so weaknesses are ther but hardly make a difference, or that simply they won't be there anymore.
2) The lack of a water spell, which destroys the "balance" of the elemental wheel.


Too early to say of course, but still I definitely am afraid.

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Originally Posted by lenethlockheed

i am not for this mage reform. ive liked everything yoshi-p has done thus far but this reform for mage's is the last and final nail in the ffxiv coffin. i would bet money on the fact that they shut this game down for good 4 months after patch 1.20 goes live. and for those who would say im whine'n b4 i try it. you know how you look up movies on netflix and it gives you a brief summary of what the movie is about and based on that you watch the movie or you pass it up and watch something else. well ive read the class reform and it doesnt sound like something im into so i'll pass it up. sorry ive stuck with this game for as long as i could but killing the mage's was the last straw for me. im sry but id rather spend money ona game thats worth playing. when i heard they were gonna combo spells i got really happy i was thinking more along the lines of breath of fire type spell combo's like have blm cast fire then whm wind booom aoe spell combo flare or what ever. but this combo system is so half ass'ed its not even worth sticking around for. and to all who would say glad your leaving we dont need you in ffxiv you can only say that so many times b4 your last left so ha. and good luck finding casters to fill your pt after 1.20 goes live cause no1 is gonna wanna play as a caster. all this being said i really hope that s.e can make me eat my words with this reform but sadly i just dont see that happening.

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I'll answer your first and last comment (use paragraphs next time please)

Proclaiming the servers are guna shut down because you are displeased with something is very far fetched.

I am a mage and looking very forward to these changes, I am currently leveling THM because I can't wait to try out the class a proper DD caster.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

Maybe I misunderstood you, but that doesn't really make sense.
It's a game with 6 elements (technically with 8...), adjusting the wheel to make it so it works with just 5 doesn't make sense.
And removing one element from the game completely doesn't make sense either.
It would be easier to just ADD a water spell to the game.

Which *hint hint* they couldn't do so far. And why couldn't they?
Simple: because they had already reached the limit of 15 actions for both THM and CNJ.
Now if things were like I said, it wouldn't have mattered.
But since they have to STRICTLY FOLLOW the 15 limits, this is what you get.

It's exactely what I was trying to say in the first posts, pretty good example.

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There is a lot of speculation suggesting the water spell is healing.

That WHM AoE super move could be water based for all we know. (I'm not sure if it said what element it was)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Now skills mp will scale with your level so no big deal here, unless of course you have burnt all your mana then too bad.

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No, it's about not waisting mp by using an overpowered spell when it's not needed.

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Enmity should be less of an issue with skills that scale this includes ones that generate enmity on GLA and MRD.

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It's not about giving gla or mrd better abilities to generate enmity, it's about you not spamming blindly spells, destroying your keyboard/joystick in the process because you will never ever get the hate on you no matter what you do.

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I assume this is solo, you shouldn't be fighting monsters much more powerful than yourself anyway. (if you are then expect to take a beating or come close to death)

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No, not on solo. Ifrit for example : depending on the situation you could be able to use a tier I spell before his next ws but not a tier II because it would take too much time and you might get the aoe.