A case of chronic gear imbalance

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

So you are unhappy about the fact that you get items that are not as good as the ones raiders get?

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I am unhappy with being consistently served inferior versions of the current top-tier set regardless of the time and effort I am willing to put into grinding.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

[...] And you consider that being fair?

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Yes, I do consider it fair, since the savage raids already give more gear-set customization options, BiS set items, not to mention glamours and mounts.
I think this alone should and does suffice to cover any special-snowflake syndrome of the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

But how do you want to explain that? Headless running content that don't need any skill at all should give you the same ilvl as savage content? And you consider that being fair? o.O

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Well, to be fair a fully upgraded relic should be far and away the best weapon in the game, as it requires far more effort to earn. But I think most players would settle for simply being equal, with just a slight benefit that's due to its customization.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Well, to be fair a fully upgraded relic should be far and away the best weapon in the game, as it requires far more effort to earn.

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Sadly, so true.. and the reason I'm avoiding the relic quest at the moment, since I've seen this play out over and over again in all patches since 2.5 (I have not seen what happened before that but I can make an educated guess).. Come next patch, the relic will still be at i260.
It seems they are set to deter players from grinding for their equipment, in favour of pushing the instant gratification content -raids, savage, trials (to the extent they are of any use).

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Sadly, so true.. and the reason I'm avoiding the relic quest at the moment, since I've seen this play out over and over again in all patches since 2.5 (I have not seen what happened before that but I can make an educated guess).. Come next patch, the relic will still be at i260.

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There are two possibilities. One, or two, more HW Relic steps.

If there is only one, they may indeed withhold it until 3.55. But, that one will both be something of a doozy, and bring the weapon to i275, same as savage level.

If there are two, then there will be one with 3.5, though whether it brings it to i265 or i270 remains to be seen. Then the 3.55 step will be the last one, bringing it to i275.

Their pattern of "new model, glow" suggests there will be two more relic steps. We just got the glow, so we are due for a new model step then a glow step. Though they may simply expand upon the glow if there is only the one additional step coming to us.

Thing is, in their effort to downgrade equipment acquired via grinding they have made item rarity a joke.
If the relic was truly the rarest (and best-in-game) weapon it should have been an i275 immediately upon patch release (even if with more steps).

And the (hypothetical) problem is that raiders would whine and be demotivated if their freebie drop isn't a few item levels above it —simple and current solution: cripple grinders' gear yet again.

Your logic makes my brain hurt, Cordie.

Think of it like this: There's the skilled professional guy with a degree, and there's the cashier at the local walmart. The professional guy applies to the raider, cashier to the grinder of dungeons and nothing else. The professional guy, being able to tackle tougher jobs (in terms of skill/knowledge required) gets a higher base pay. The cashier, being a grunt of the retail workforce, does a job with basically no skill (push buttons, take money, withstand verbal abuse from a few unreasonable customers), and gets a lower base pay. Now naturally, given enough time, both people will accumulate the same amount of money, differing only in when they reach that amount (for the sake of argument, let's assume both have a positive cash flow). Obviously, the professional guy will reach that amount MUCH faster. The cashier, working over several more hours, eventually gets it. But what if the cashier wants to work more hours to reach that amount faster? Well, too bad, there's only so many hours in a week, you can't work 1000 hours in a week, so you still have to wait.

Now, let's look at it from the perspective of the game again. In order to balance it, they would have to make it take more time than it does for learning/clearing savage floors to get the 260 upgrade items. Keep in mind this does not take the time of the world first, it takes the time of the typical raider. It's not going to be 'run all 3 24 man raids of the expansion and voila 270 item' on day one of the raid patch. If they were to balance it, they would have to make you grind something for hours and hours and hours to make it equivalent in effort to wiping over and over and over in savage until you clear it and get your piece. Again, the loot is restricted from there as well, so assuming the loot is divided equally, you would win the equivalent of one EIGHTH of an upgrade piece. That's eight weeks of savage for a single i270 upgrade (and they would obviously have to balance it around the loot being divided equally). What are they going to give you to do for that upgrade item that isn't just tome grind? Why do you even need it? 10 ilvl difference won't make much difference for the typical casual player anyway, so SE has decided there's simply no need to add it until the catch-up patch (which is still ROFLFACEROLLLOL in terms of effort compared to the raiding effort to get it originally anyway).

You seem to be implying: Raider = hardcore player, Grinder = casual.
Last time I checked, this was still an RPG. Now it's probably the only one where hardcore grinders do NOT get the top-tier equipment for their characters.
To relate it to your example, it is not the same amount of money, and time spent working matters not at all.

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

[...]If they were to balance it, they would have to make you grind something for hours and hours and hours[..]

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And I would be happy to grind!

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

Why do you even need it? 10 ilvl difference won't make much difference for the typical casual player anyway[...]

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Why I need it? Exactly the same reason raiders "need" it. I haven't even proposed the exact same items through raids and grinding, just the same ilevel.
And finally here we go with the big claim: Grinder = Casual player
May I ask since when?
(FYI, hardcore grinder here)

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Originally Posted by OoglieBooglie

[...]Again, the loot is restricted from there as well, [...]

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Yes, that restriction you mention in savage is sickening: 1 i270 item weekly, vs 0.9 of an i260 item (including your "equal distribution").

Grinding is not casual play. Grinders got the latest HW Relic step done in a day, at most two. Casual players got it done in a matter of a couple weeks.

That said .. grinding is not difficult. Whether the raids are difficult or not is a matter of tuning and individual skill. They are supposed to be the more challenging content. That difficulty must be rewarded somehow, and it is rewarded with the highest ilevel gear. Note that other than weapon, casuals and non-raiders alike can get the same ilevel gear after some time has passed; the raiding lock on higher ilevel gear is time-limited.

I have said, and stand by my statement, that grinding out a relic is more effort than obtaining a raid weapon. It is not more difficult, by any stretch of the imagination, but it does take more work, and thus, more effort. This, and that it is what happened with ARR, is why I hope and expect the last HW relic step to bring it to i275, the same as the raid drop weapon.

Is i270 gear needed for the raid? Nope. The gear is not required for the current raid tier. It is both prize for beating current raid tier, and (usually) the gear you get in preparation for the unreleased next raid tier. Expansions that increase the level cap interrupt this cycle, of course - people were not using Final Coil gear in the first four floors of Alexander savage, nor will they use i270 savage gear in the Stormblood raid - but barring that interruption, one tier's raid gear is the level needed for the next tier raids. You raid to gear up for the next raid, not for the current one.

While it may seem unfair, it's made so that raiders who gave the hardest content will get the best gear fastest.

While people who grind casual content will get gear slower and not as strong.
It's basically saying "this is all you need to clear the content you're running" VS "you're going to need to this to continuing advancing in this content".

Honestly, even ilv 260 gear is rather high for the content non-raiders run. I know some games that would stick you with the gear that drops in dungeons until you start running harder content.