If DV is nice but not necessary then Path, Reprisal, Eye, and basically anything but the bare minimum to clear content after massive over-gearing is nice but not necessary.
Is this what it has come down to? People who still don't / can't clear content even with over gearing calling skills that were incredibly strong and useful in early prog nice but not necessary?
There are some real complaints about stuff like cover and tempered will not doing enough but DV is not part of PLD's problem. It's one of PLD's main strengths.
Is it a bit clunky to use? Yea. So are all the other tank mitigation tools. Delirium and Path are the third hits of combos and that requires you to really understand GCD windows in a fight. Reprisal requires you to proc it and hold it ahead of when you need it. None of the tank mitigation tools are easy to "apply."
The one thing I really want for Paladins
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11-14-2016, 11:18 AMBrian_
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11-15-2016, 12:01 AMLilLemayI feel like if they made Cover just have a much larger range it'd be so much easier to use, instead of having to hit it then basically stand on-top of my target for it to work, and I've played with the thought of maybe having Divine Veil not need the heal to proc it anymore? I.e the paladin hits it and the shield is immediately applied? A wider range on DV wouldn't hurt too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
As far as Tempered Will I think it just needs a shorter CD, maybe 60s or something, for a 20s duration? -
11-15-2016, 05:21 AMUltimatecaliburPlease understand that I said Divine Veil was underutilized. As in not utilized to its current full capabilities. This is partially the result of healers pre-casting AoE heals during big full party attacks and then following it up with another AoE heal after. DV can sometimes remove the need for the follow up AoE but the healers will still cast their heal on muscle memory making the shield nice to have but often wasted even though it was useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Far to few Paladins use Divine Veil just like how far to few Warriors apply Storm's Path. In far to many pug EX primals have I seen Warriors keeping Eye up but never applying Path.
As for Delirium... Dragon Kick makes the debuff unnecessary if you have a Monk and since Delirium is the second highest DpS combo ender for the Dark Knight it should be used pretty much any time the combo is not being ended by a DA Souleater. Heck its the only tank Mitigation debuff that is not a dps loss so should be expect to be up pretty close to continuously. -
11-15-2016, 08:18 AMLyth
If you're playing PLD in prog, your healers should not only know where every usage of DV occurs, but should be involved early on in deciding when exactly it should be used. DV vs. Reprisal placement is one of the single biggest factors in deciding whether to go PLD or DRK on a particular fight, sometimes even moreso than the damage type. I feel like the players who enjoy PLD the most are the ones who know how to take advantage of its situational bag of tricks to find a cheese for every occasion. When it all clicks together in the same fight, it's brilliant.
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11-15-2016, 08:48 AMManuelBravo
being that paladin is Tank would be nice if they had a desperation move such as something similar to second wind that doesn't require mp and call it last stand. :P that or perhaps dual wielding swords like in 11 lol
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11-15-2016, 11:16 AMBrian_Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
It doesn't matter what type of follow-up healing there is if everyone is dead before because they didn't have sufficient shielding and mitigation to survive the hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
You bring up Path. Okay, the only people who will say Path is bad, underutilized, or otherwise are the people who got carried to clears by their gear. They should not be talking about job / skill balance because their perception is skewed by gear balance. Everyone that knows the truth about Path knows that it's one of the best skills in the game. The same is true for DV. DV is not underutilized when in early prog you are planning your raid mitigation around skills like DV.
Like I said, if your argument is that a skill is underutilized because it's not necessary in EX Primals after over gearing, then you can say maybe 90% of the skills in the game can be underutilized. -
11-15-2016, 03:34 PMUltimatecaliburAny party wide attack that a Warrior/Paladin (and in theory Paladin/Dark Knight) composition can survive is survivable by a Warrior/Dark Knight composition that does not have Divine Veil. If the Healers can handle a heal check during for a Warrior/Dark Knight composition then the can usually handle the same check with a Warrior/Paladin composition without needing the Paladin to use Divine Veil. This leads to lazy Paladins not using the ability because they see that the party does not need it to complete content. I don't like this mentality but I admit that the mentality does exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
You were the one who brought up Path first and I full agree that it is one of the best defensive abilities in the game, but I believe that the general non-raiding population doesn't use Path or Divine Veil as much as they should/could use it because they can't really see how good they are.Quote:
You bring up Path. Okay, the only people who will say Path is bad, underutilized, or otherwise are the people who got carried to clears by their gear. They should not be talking about job / skill balance because their perception is skewed by gear balance. Everyone that knows the truth about Path knows that it's one of the best skills in the game. The same is true for DV. DV is not underutilized when in early prog you are planning your raid mitigation around skills like DV.
Most raiders are not the ones underutilizing abilities like Path, DV and Tempered Will and are often the ones wishing that recast timers were shorter so that they can use them more.
No, its underutilized because to many of players playing Paladins fail to use Divine Veil when the could/should use it.Quote:
Like I said, if your argument is that a skill is underutilized because it's not necessary in EX Primals after over gearing, then you can say maybe 90% of the skills in the game can be underutilized.
In far to many Sophia EX parties just after 3.4 released (i.e. before overgearing, aka during progression) did I end up being the only Paladin using Divine Veil to help mitigate raid wide damage and far to few of the Warriors I was paired with would use Path to help lighten the load on the healers. This sort of stuff is why I feel that they are underutilized. -
11-15-2016, 04:04 PMSarcatica
Recognising when to use those mitigation skills is what most players lack. Some wars just use path all the time, some don't even use it. On the same side, some PLD advocates having str debuff up for as much as possible, on the other end, some don't even want to use it if possible.
This becomes preferences that are often fallacies. All these skills in the black and white benefit way more on coordinated groups. This reasoning being most of the damage ingame aren't fatal, making it somewhat 'needed' mostly for struggling players. The better your group is, the less 'needed' those mitigation skills will be, since you exclusively use those for the more important parts. Hence the "nice to have, but not needed" mentality.
You should be able to explain why a certain skill is useful to use on certain encounters, especially if you are not dead without those skills AND there is no follow-up damages coming.
You also need to explain why and how are the top 1% are able to have ridiculous dps stance uptime on both tanks and healers and still able to do mechanics just as well and actually better. You might as well have those skills up 100% if it helps lessen healers burden, right? Grit/Defiance/ShO also help a lot btw. /s -
11-15-2016, 04:27 PMBrian_DRK/WAR comps can survive that eHP check because of Reprisal's 10% damage reduction. You either have the mitigation from Reprisal + Path, DV + Path, or DV + Reprisal. The tanks are balanced in terms of raid mitigation. If PLDs didn't have or didn't use DV, then no, the healers wouldn't be able to handle the same eHP check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Content like Sophia EX and bad players who don't know how to play their job should not be the standard used judge whether or not skills are underutilized and should not be justification for why an ability needs to change. I could clear that content and out perform those players using <10 skills. Does that say something about the other >20 skills? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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11-15-2016, 05:53 PMUltimatecaliburWrong. Take for example Divine Judgement in A12N and A12S and similar limit break attacks that appear throughout the game, you can not mitigate the damage from the attack with either Path or Reprisal due to being unable to hit Alexander Prime with either attack less than 20s before the attack goes off. On the other hand the Paladin can help mitigate each and everyone of those limitbreak attacks by proper use of Divine Veil's shields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Actually they are the exactly the players you need to check with to find out why they are not using (i.e. underutilizing) an ability because there is a cognitive gap somewhere.Quote:
Content like Sophia EX and bad players who don't know how to play their job should not be the standard used judge whether or not skills are underutilized and should not be justification for why an ability needs to change. I could clear that content and out perform those players using <10 skills. Does that say something about the other >20 skills? No.
High end players will show designers how abilities are best used for max output while average players will show average use for average effect and give them a better idea of how abilities are being used/not used. The average player is why many of the 4.0 changes are happening not the world first hardcore endgame raider.