Could Provoke be a little bit Fell Cleave proof?

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Using even one BB combo during a triple FC zerk window is actually a DPS loss since by doing so, because of the 3 FCs, the Fracture, and the pacification, you'll drop the SE debuff before being able to re-apply it, which makes you lose 27 potency on the next SE while reducing at least one of your AA's damage, on top of reducing the damage from the other tank and your NIN if you have one, so it outweights the 20 potency gain from BB combo. There is no reason to use BB during a 3 FC zerk so this kind of tank swapping fail shouldn't even happen.

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If you use block combo before eye combo in the berserk duration, the eye debuff wouldn't drop. This only works if the last combo you used before activating berserk is eye combo though.

I usually do it like this: HS (Berserk) > FC (Infuriate) > FC > SS > BB > HS > M > SE > Fr > FC, and eye debuff would last until my eye combo after pacification.

Cmiiw or maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to say.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

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Usually when your Zerk becomes available, your previous combo was either a BB or a SP depending on the one you needed if you had 100% uptime, so you need to do SE-SE before even activating Zerk in order to do that. It also depends on SkS, I tried your specific scenario and even with SE right before activating the Zerk, it barely was at 1sec remaining when I re-applied it and right now my SkS is quite higher than necessary to fit the 9GCD so with less SkS it definitely will drop. Also, you're using your Fracture too late; I understand you're using it at that moment to get the 5 stacks 10% crit buff, but if you do it after the previous combo, you'll have 3 stacks + IR, which translates into 16% crit bonus. I of course assume you pop IR at the same time as Zerk, doing IR+Zerk in the same GCD to get more chances to crit on your double FC. And if you're having the opportunity of doing this burst rotation as an OT opener (which is the only time where it's normal to have SE be your last combo before activating Zerk), you shouldn't use BB either since you're at a high risk of ripping aggro off the MT at this point in the fight, except if it's another WAR.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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The reason I use fracture where I use it is because if I fit it in after my block combo then I risk dropping the eye debuff before reapplying, it's quite tight unless I have fey wind. My sks is barely 600 atm. As for using eye-eye before berserk, I think it's a good trade since it's trading eye-block-zerk-eye-eye for eye-eye-zerk-block-eye, so that extra potency from block over eye is boosted by zerk. If berserk is up right after I finish a block combo with 4-5 stacks then I'll most likely do what you said (eye-eye during berserk) rather than hold berserk for 3 gcds, but I'm just saying that sometimes you can do block-eye during berserk without dropping eye debuff.

Ofc this is assuming I have no problem with aggro against MT, if it's right after a tank swap then I would go for eye-eye during berserk.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

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We're in agreement then. The scenarios in which you'll be able to fit BB during a Zerk window exist but are really few and could be screwed up in case you lose a little bit of uptime (mechanics, unplanned things happening because someone screwed up, etc) , making you lose the Eye debuff. The risk isn't worth the 20 potency boost most of the time.

I wouldn't call potentially every single time you use Berserk "really few." Also, saying mechanics could happen isn't relevant because you wouldn't use your Berserk when mechanics could potentially compromise its uptime. So you're left with unplanned mistakes -- and here your term "really few" actually applies. TBH it doesn't make sense to play around mistakes. You play around mistakes by not making mistakes.

And this only matters if you don't have someone to remove Pacification even if it's not an instant removal.

And on the larger point about BB usage, with how they nerfed tank damage, I don't find my enmity generation being much higher than DPS who actually play their class well even with BB in the standard rotation. Before the nerfs, it was definitely an issue. After? Not really. Given that you have to maintain Eye and that Path is needed at times during progression, using BB in your rotation really shouldn't cause issues unless your MT is bad.

Only level 36. If it makes you feel better; when I first got provoke, I treated it (based on tooltip) like taunts from, say, WoW; an opener, thinking it would give temporary aggro regardless. Not for long (I do like to research), but enough to be cringe-worthy. The way I treat it now is that if some random chappy steals/acquires enemy attention (eg. I didn't flash enough and Healer is spamming heals like a madman and gets the attention of a stray unharmed mob from a pack), I'll build up to RoH, Provoke, use RoH then maybe 1-2 hits for a Savage Blade for good measure, flash while dragging it back to position so all the others also get some enmity love. This tends to solve the problem, but that's low level stuff and probably doesn't apply to the debates in this thread.

As a lowbie, I consider it OK as an ability - I just hate when I have to use it, as it often means either I underestimated my flashes, or some DPS is going completely ham and/or doesn't like hitting marked targets.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

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At higher level, there are times when tank swap is absolutely necessary to clear a dungeon. But this only applies to lv 50 and 60 contents with 8 or 24 ppl (and hence multiple tanks).

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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I think whether you can fit a block combo in berserk comes down to what kind of opener you use, which will determine what combo you use right before berserk is up again. If it's up right after you did block combo and got 4-5 abandon stacks then you probably would use it with two eye combos. In my case I don't particularly notice either case being an obvious majority lol.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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I agree with all you said. If you know and master the fight perfectly then everything should go as planned and using BB during a Zerk window is definitely do-able as long as SE was your last combo before popping Zerk. When I say "really few" I'm taking into account all the things you'll do with PUGs who rarely go perfectly, and progression raiding aswell, when you still don't know the fights perfectly. Once you master everything it's just like singing the exact same song every week on Tuesday evening so the perfect scenarios should happen everytime or at least most of the time, then the original question about BB screwing tank swaps is non-existent. The thread has never been about perfectly mastered raiding fights.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

As a lowbie, I consider it OK as an ability - I just hate when I have to use it, as it often means either I underestimated my flashes, or some DPS is going completely ham and/or doesn't like hitting marked targets.

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you will need it when you die to get the aggro back. on my first tanking experience as lvl 30 dark knight in haukke i died at the endboss because the healer got in panic when all those adds spawned and tried to attack him xD i grabbed all of them with my aoe and used my defense cooldown - but he was still busy with spamming heals on himself instead of healing me, so i died. i got an revive, the adds were dead, but i was unable to get the aggro back from the boss, so one of the DDs had to tank him until the end of the fight. the next thing i did was lvling my paladin xD

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

If you use block combo before eye combo in the berserk duration, the eye debuff wouldn't drop. This only works if the last combo you used before activating berserk is eye combo though.

I usually do it like this: HS (Berserk) > FC (Infuriate) > FC > SS > BB > HS > M > SE > Fr > FC, and eye debuff would last until my eye combo after pacification.

Cmiiw or maybe I misunderstood what you're trying to say.

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Even though eye doesnt drop, I personally dont like to use BB in a zerk window. Going Eye -> Eye lets you place Fracture right after the first Eye, where IR is still up and you also have 3 stacks. But either way, the difference is minimal.