DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Oh really. I'm sure every warrior that changes from defiance to deliverance and immediately loses a large chunk of health (as max health decreases) is immediately unequivocally undeniably worse than another tank.
Oh wait, warrior is a very good tank in FFXIV.

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Defiance gives you a buff that both increases max hp and increases healing received. Losing a buff is not the same as using a skill that costs hp. With that logic, you might as well not even use any defensive CDs because once you lose their buff, you take more damage. If you want to see skills that cost hp, go play some pvp in swtor where pug sorcs/sages will deplete their own hp so they can heal themselves back and at the end it looks like they actually did something (I haven't played in forever so idk if that's common anymore lol).

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

ehhh.. losing maximum HP isnt the same as taking damage.

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The point that was made was that using abilities that lower your HP to gain dps is a no-no as a tank. The mechanism of how the HP is being lost is different, yes, but ultimately we are talking about giving up HP that you have currently for greater dps potential. Going from Defiance to Deliverance seems to me to fit that bill(in fact all stance dancing as it increases/lowers your eHP). I dont mean to present myself as arguing that all moves causing a tank to lose HP for another kind of gain are good and as I said I dont think there is anything particularly wrong with DP as is. However, I think as long as the gains justify the means its a legitimate way to design/play a tank class.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Defiance gives you a buff that both increases max hp and increases healing received. Losing a buff is not the same as using a skill that costs hp. With that logic, you might as well not even use any defensive CDs because once you lose their buff, you take more damage.

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When you drop Defiance or use a skill that sacrifices HP for damage, buffs, or whatever you are making the choice that those gains are worth the loss of a greater amount of HP. I dont think ppl, at least I am not, are saying that they are exactly the same thing. Only that principally they are the same. Just bc DP taking HP might not be a great choice doesn't mean the principle is wrong.

Arcanists sustain skill used to deplete the players HP to heal the pet but later they changed it to deplete MP instead. Did they ever give a reason why?

It's a completely unnecessary idea that won't make DRK any stronger or more fun to play. You should literally never have MP problems, if you do you're thinking wrong about the job. The MP you save would only be enough for 1 more Dark Arts every minute.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

The point that was made was that using abilities that lower your HP to gain dps is a no-no as a tank. The mechanism of how the HP is being lost is different, yes, but ultimately we are talking about giving up HP that you have currently for greater dps potential. Going from Defiance to Deliverance seems to me to fit that bill(in fact all stance dancing as it increases/lowers your eHP).

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It's not really comparable. Dropping tank stance just means you're going to take more damage on every hit, something healers can easily adjust to. Making Dark Passenger use HP would mean that you're losing a big chunk (probably 15-25%) of your HP on top of whatever damage is coming in at that time.

I have 25k health in dungeon groups. DP cost about 880 mana. If it cost that same amount in health that certainly doesn't equal 15-25% of my health. And it's not about mana "problems". I don't have mana problems nor am I suggesting this be some sort of a cure for mana problems, only that it's an alternative to spending mana that can go to other abilities such as a Dark Arts Carve and Spit combo that if coupled with a Dark Passenger costing mana would effectively chop down your mana by roughly 1/3 an in instant. Mana that can certainly be regenerated using given Drk skills, but unless you have Blood Price and blood weapon active would take extra time and effort, especially if you have grit up and can't even access blood weapon.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

The point that was made was that using abilities that lower your HP to gain dps is a no-no as a tank. The mechanism of how the HP is being lost is different, yes, but ultimately we are talking about giving up HP that you have currently for greater dps potential. Going from Defiance to Deliverance seems to me to fit that bill(in fact all stance dancing as it increases/lowers your eHP).

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No, no. i don't disagree with the sentiment. I really do understand... but I feel there needs to be a distinction here and people are either skirting around it or don't see it:
RISK is NOT the same as COST. 25% HP isnt the COST of Deliverance. it is merely the loss of another benefit. you're not using your HP as a resource when you use Defiance or Deliverance. Reverting is NOT the same as loss.

I hear most people try to or mainly tank in Deliverance and swap to Defiance for tank busters for that sweet Inner Beast. Imagine surviving that tank buster just to roll over dead because you took 6k damage swapping back to DPS mode.

The POSSIBLY to die because of X buff disappearing is far FAR different than DEFINITELY dying because Y skill I have that COSTS HP.

There IS a distinction to be made. I can promise you, if Deliverance actually chunked 25% out of you, less people would be eager for those Fell Cleaves. and there sure as heck be alot less warriors stance dancing.

Plus, mathematically speaking, your hypothetical comparison becomes less and less comparable the lower the warrior is below the 25% hp threshold. if you're sitting at 50% hp when you swap, you've lost no health. just POTENTIAL health you didnt even have. 15k/30k simply "drops" to 15k/24k. alot better than the alternative of 9k/30k

My thoughts on killing yourself by accident would be that they simply wouldn't allow you to use the health eating skill any more than they'd allow you to cast a spell when you don't have enough mana. A level of judgement should also be expected from tanks. If you're scraping the bottom of your health pool DPS shouldn't be your main concern anyways because something has gone wrong, with the exception of a him or me scenario in which case you can pop living dead and pray he dies before you do.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I have 25k health in dungeon groups. DP cost about 880 mana. If it cost that same amount in health that certainly doesn't equal 15-25% of my health.

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Why would it cost so little when geared tanks are at 25k+? That would just make it another free off-GCD.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

And it's not about mana "problems". I don't have mana problems nor am I suggesting this be some sort of a cure for mana problems, only that it's an alternative to spending mana that can go to other abilities such as a Dark Arts Carve and Spit combo that if coupled with a Dark Passenger costing mana would effectively chop down your mana by roughly 1/3 an in instant.

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"alternative to spending mana that can go to other abilities" does sound like an MP management problem because you didn't make sure you had enough to use both DP and DA+CS on cooldown, blowing 1/3 of your MP at once isn't actually a problem. Stop blowing all your MP on DA+Souleater the instant you get enough for it. As long as you never hit max MP, you're not wasting any and you can use DA+Souleater to stay below max while always having enough for DP and DA+CS, or DA+DM when you need it.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

My thoughts on killing yourself by accident would be that they simply wouldn't allow you to use the health eating skill any more than they'd allow you to cast a spell when you don't have enough mana. A level of judgement should also be expected from tanks. If you're scraping the bottom of your health pool DPS shouldn't be your main concern anyways because something has gone wrong, with the exception of a him or me scenario in which case you can pop living dead and pray he dies before you do.

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And thats been a counter point this whole time. DP as it is, is ALREADY a judgement call, but if you're wrong, you simply OoM and need to regather yourself. A bit of a penlty, sure, but you can right it. If it were to cost HP in that same situation, you'd be dead and unable to do anything at all. You'd be 'Goon'd.

And again, on top of this, as it stands, DRK doesnt have many tools to recover HP. the way we're designed, our only option when we ARE scraping the bottom of the barrel for HP is to BURST our little edgy butts off. kill it before it kills us. in this scenario we now have 1 less tool to achieve that goal

If you're scraping the bottom of your health pool you don't really want to use either health or mana on DP, but instead pop grit and a da plus soul eater combo a few times. All that would cost mana and a lot of it