Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

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Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I notice in pre-52 dungeons a lot of Bards love to run and jump around while using their abilities think they are really ace, so I'm guessing they are one of the vocal crowds crying about having to stand still for brief periods >.>

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Honestly, I remember multiple incidences in level 50 content where bards running around like derps got me killed.

It's kind of nice not having people running around when they don't need to be.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

It's kind of nice not having people running around when they don't need to be.

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Melee hit twice as hard and can move around all they want. Granted, some of their skills rely on positional attacks, but it's still kind of a double standard especially when the bard/mch spends most of their levels with full mobility and only gets cast bars in their twilight days.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

But their playstyles are very different, Mch has RNG and combos, Brd has less rng, an extra dot, etc.

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I wouldn't say they're completely different. Both rely on RNG to a certain degree to get the most DPS, though Machinist is more heavily reliant on it (to its detriment).

Basically, machinist gets random procs and bard gets random Bloodletter resets. Of course. the big downside to Machinist is that their skills are weaker than Bard skills by default, and this forces you to rely on procs/ammo to get the same damage. Personally, I wouldn't mind the ammunition count if it worked more like Aetherflow and didn't have a duration. As it stands, it's pretty easy to lose bullets during certain combat phases.

I basically see Machinist as Bards younger brother. Weaker still than the bard, and with less utility to boot. Bard was never known for being a powerhouse DPS, but they could at least compete for the title. Only the luck of the Irish would allow a machinist the same chance.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Melee hit twice as hard and can move around all they want. Granted, some of their skills rely on positional attacks, but it's still kind of a double standard especially when the bard/mch spends most of their levels with full mobility and only gets cast bars in their twilight days.

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Melee are restricted to melee range. Casters and healers need only stay at range to stay out of their way.

Having a random derp-bard running around and dropping mechanics on you was annoying as hell.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Having a random derp running around and dropping mechanics on you was annoying as hell.

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Sorry, fixed it for you. The same could be said for ANY job too stupid to avoid the mechanics. In fact, this is actually more common with classes which can't move as much than it is with those who can. The number of black mages I've seen who absolutely MUST cast that Fire IV spell because they're sitting in their circle and don't want to leave it is insane. And don't even get me started on melee classes who want to keep attacking the boss when they should be running off to deal with adds or other mechanics elsewhere in the arena.

Any player should use the full range of skills given to them, knowing when to dodge and when to deal with boss mechanics regardless of their job. Blaming bards just because they have the benefit of mobility is just people looking for a scapegoat.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Sorry, fixed it for you. The same could be said for ANY job too stupid to avoid the mechanics.

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Except that you didn't fix it - that black mage that sits in his Ley Lines is a bad example because he isn't bringing a mechanic over and dropping it on me. He's choosing to take extra damage on himself. I'm not saying he's right to sit there, but my post was specifically referring to the fact that a lot of Bards ran around just because they could and it had the potential to make things harder on other players. Got a mechanic you need to stay spread out for (Thunderstorm in Ramuh, for example)? Great, everyone spread out... but you always had Bards that ran around all over God's green earth even when they didn't need to be moving at all, forcing other players to move out of their way. I honestly like things a lot better now that Bards move less.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I remember multiple incidences in level 50 content where bards running around like derps

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That's a feature of the class 50+ and below. ;)

Though when I did it I found a specific section of the boss arena (depending on the boss) to do it so I wouldn't get in anyone's way. But being a mobile dps is one of the best parts of the class.

This isn't a new topic at all. It's been answered in live letters and other threads.

The devs had mentioned multiple times that bard had few penalties for being ranged. When 2.0 launched, they were easily the highest dps or atleast in the top 3, which is kind of silly considering all the upsides and mobility they had. Soon after there were some sweeping nerfs to break them closer to the end of the dps charts. Even with all that, in the live letters the devs still said bard had it too easy compared to others jobs. They wanted to implement cast times to bard way back in 2.0.

It's the dev's vision. This is how they see a ranged class. They don't believe they should have infinite mobility (I mean you can have it but not at 100% dps output). If you have played bard and machinist (which I assume) you know that machinist has a easier time with the cast time mechanic because of the ammo skill. Machinists have more mobility/dps and perhaps a few more useful utility skills, bards have a few bonus support abilities (well the one anyway, to remove stasis effects, but also they can boost their regen effect for longer duration). Yea they are pretty darn similar but so are other jobs.

mch: have +10% physical or magical vulnerability debuff 20s (120s CD) , heavy / knockback , silence/stun ,-5% dmg debuff (physical or magical share cd) , use turrets and a easy time moving thanks to ammo or procs , MP/TP regen is instant cast, disable torret attack

brd: have 10% magical only (no cd but mp limited) , can boost it to 20% ever 5 min , and has bind and silence , dispel now...MP/TP regen 3s casting time and lowers brd dmg by 20%.

oh btw Brd uses MP for FOE, MP ,TP while MCH use the mp only on MP/TP regen , the debuff is CD based no need MP at all.

correct me if im wrong :S

Okay, its mostly Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet that bug me. Not the skills themselves, but its copy pasted to two different jobs. It is not a split job like Scholar and Summoner sharing Arcanist. Bard and Machinist are independent of eachother. Give one of the the casting stance, then give the other one a different mechanic. The only difference I notice is that Machinist has BS RNG woven into the kit, and Bard has better DOTs I guess, I'm not a bard expert. Its just realllly weird they share that specific skill, at the same specific level, essentially becoming imperfect clones of eachother. They even have similar skills outside of the cast stance. Machinist is a weaker Bard when they get no procs. I really hate rng.

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Originally Posted by Elky

Does anybody know if there is logic behind this? I feel like both lose their uniqueness due to their similarities in skills and how they are played.

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Because the ability for ranged to move around freely without restriction and still deal damage was imbalanced. It was easier for Archer/Bard to pretty much ignore mechanics and continue fighting, meanwhile both Blackmage/Summoner and Melee have to do their dance and avoid doing DPS during certain parts. That's why Machinist/Bards get the charge abilities they get to balance it so that they need to be more mindful with enemy AOE effects rather than just run around like chickens with their heads cut off.