The Illusion of Choice

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

It really couldn't be more obvious that what you 'want'... already exists, and has existed since patch 1.18...

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

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This fails to occupy the same umbrella for a number of reasons.

• Spec'd jobs usually share skills that work in various ways upon spec
• In FFXIV you can only gear one job to max at a time, which limits you from swapping builds for different encounters
• Swapping jobs does not give you any sort of customization, skill building or theorycrafting.

Fundamentally, they are different things, and appease different people.

Interestingly, it is actually easier to have multiple classes at max level in raiding in other games, due to the fact that you are not locked in gear per class. In this game, you're encouraged to play everything on one character, which then caps your ability to gear multiple jobs. So, in addition to other games providing more customization within each class/job, they also enable you to play more than one job more easily.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

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This is true to an extent, but just about every MMO has more than one class option for a particular role, with additional choices layered on top of that. While FFXIV is somewhat unique in allowing the leveling of multiple jobs on one character, its predecessor, FFXI still had player choice added to it (through Merit Points, though also through a wider variety of available gear), despite having the same basic job system. FFXI actually just recently added another customization system for each job, in fact (the newer Job Points, which are similar to but distinct from Merit Points).

The game does already have elements of choice, but they are not particularly novel or engaging when compared to other MMOs. It's just a matter of finding ways that customization can be added without undermining game balance, which is something that needs to be done carefully—something I admit even if I'm definitely in the pro-customization camp.

I personally like choice and options however I have seen both the Best & worse situations rise out of Talent Trees, specializations, etc.

A good example is Everquest 2s Alternate advancement. AAs for short.

They truly morphed what your character could do & what they became.
As a Rogue (Brigand/Swashbuckler) you could become a Tank through AAs.
As a Healer you could go down the "Battle Cleric" line and become a dps force.
As a Tank you coukd go down a DPS line and become very good at DPS.

For conversation we'll take the Healer path as it was by far the most dramatic of the AAs.
So Battle Cleric when activated boosted Defense to that of a Tanks.
It also turned all spells into Melee attacks.
So Smite lost its cast time and became an instant attack but it lost a % of its damage.
But going Battle Cleric never reduced Heals or Buffs. But now Healers had to watch for AOEs and were frontline fighters. A risky Tradeoff.

This line turned the healers up on their heads. Most players LOVED it.
The downside is...while it increased the amount of players playing healing jobs they were not Healing.

Eventually it got worse. Tanks became DPS, Healers became DPS. So who was Tanking? Who was Healing?
Answer: No one.

Now many folks like to say:
"You'll still have people who spec Tank/Healer."
This statement is true. I am NOT denying it.
But Tanks & Healers were Extremely rare. Akin to seeing a unicorn.
But...
Honestly about 2 (maybe 3) out 10 people choose to spec as Tank/Healer.
Why go Tank? Why not hit hard and be a "Heavily Armored Badass"?
Why Heal? Healers are weak in combat if you follow Fantasy Tropes.
Why should "I" take longer/be unable to solo, travel, kill, etc. Is a big reason why folks go the DPS path.
Also...the major factor for many was the fact there is less stress and responsibility as dps.
So queue times sky rocket, and when you did get a Tank and Healer you didn't dare cross them.

WOW learned this with Dual Spec.
Players claimed if they could have dual spec they would be able to have a Tank spec & Healer spec for group play. Then have a dps spec for solo/questing.
Well...
Nearly every single Paladin on Azeroth became Retribution (dps).
Warriors all flocked to the Warrior DPS trees
Preists went Shadow.
Druids went Moonkin.
Shamans went enhancement.
Death Knights ignored taking Tanking Talents.
And for their 2nd spec...
They specced a varient for dps for a different situation.

Tanks, Healers, became even rarer. Everyone wanted to do big numbers and top the parsers.
And once people figured out the ins and outs. It was __ spec or you were a bad.

From a development viewpoint due to specific builds being super effective at content. They'd have to constantly tweek them.

You can't have Tanks soloing Raid Bosses, and Rogues killing 10+ players solo (it happened a lot.)
But tweeks always broke something else.
Thus the "Flavor of the Month Class" came into existence.
Every month it was ___class that people gravitated to because they were OP.

Best way to alleviate this was to take away the trees. It dramatically reduced the constant stream of nerfs and buffs.

Now in EQs case...the devs straight up told people "___ class excells at this deal with it." And kept AAs and etc.
However Tanks & Healers ended up being treated like kings.
They ruled the game & you.
I myself charged gold/plat to Tank dungeons. (I'm a Mercenary at heart.)
People gladly paid up too. No questions asked.

In todays MMO world that'd be unacceptable.
To put in FF14 terms.
Imagine if Yoshi came out and said:
"Paladin is the Endgame Tank. If you want to be the best Tank you role Paladin because they have _ CD(s) and abilities. Warrior is for Off Tanking and Dark Knight is for Dungeons.
White Mage is the Endgame Healer.
Scholar is for Dungeons, Astrologians are for Off Healing.
Black Mage is the highest dps class period.
Ninja is the solo class."

Result: Players would riot.

Now some folks will say: "Having facts like that is what made XI so great."

Well if I remember correctly XI had many jobs that no one played/took to groups as a result.
Beastmaster & Puppeteer are 2 of the most famous examples.

That said. I'd love trees, ability morphs, and etc.
Hell in ESO I solo literally any and everything on my Templar thanks to their skillpoint system.

However if they did add this in. I feel the combat engine would need to be replaced with something along theblines of Tera, PSO, or some action game. So folks can be self reliant, blocking and dodging would need to be the new focus. So players are accountable for themselves.
This way the whole "balance" thing can go away.
Balance really only hinders The Trinity system & PVP imo.

The OP answers are biased. You may not like crafting but I do and there are others out there like me that like crafting as well. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean everyone else and their grandma doesnt like it.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The OP answers are biased. You may not like crafting but I do and there are others out there like me that like crafting as well. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean everyone else and their grandma doesnt like it.

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That was my entire point.

WoW ruined character customization by adding it at the beginning of the game instead of the end. Player need some to work towards after reaching level cap and upgrading jobs is the best chose. Now FFXIV can't simple do what the "other" guy does because of it's design. As BLM was an example, we can't have a Fire mage or Ice Mage because BLM's mechanic. We can how add traits to make other spells more useful in combat. Take Sleep for example. You could add an effect like AoE blind. Fire 2 could add a burn DoT. Freeze could add slow. Stuff like this continues to add life to the game which is key for sub based MMO.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The OP answers are biased. You may not like crafting but I do and there are others out there like me that like crafting as well. Just because you dont like something doesnt mean everyone else and their grandma doesnt like it.

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You should reread the OP xD #redundancy

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

What you're referring to is a Dilemma or Morton's Fork. A Dilemma or Morton's Fork would be a choice between two equal/undesirable choices.

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Nitpicking, but these aren't the same thing.

A dilemma involves choosing between multiple options that all lead to different unpleasant results.

Morton's Fork involves choosing between multiple options that all lead to equivalent (or identical) unpleasant results.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

• Spec'd jobs usually share skills that work in various ways upon spec

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Crossclass abilities come to mind. Potency and behavior changes on multiple crossclass abilities based on the job using them.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

• In FFXIV you can only gear one job to max at a time, which limits you from swapping builds for different encounters

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Huh? focusing on one at a time is a choice, not a limitation. I had every class to 30 before I focused one to 50, and I had EVERY doh class to 49 before I pushed them each to 50. As for job locks in instances, many people still swap out gear before a boss if it suits a smoother encounter.
Plus there is the matter of, for example, strength stat allocation, versus vit stat allocation on tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

• Swapping jobs does not give you any sort of customization, skill building or theorycrafting.

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Well sure, so long as you ignore the benefits of unlocking new crossclass abilities, ease of accessing certain df queues, stat allocation, crafting/melding gear into specific stats for specific needs, better understanding other party roles and how they interact with your own (aka skill buiding).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Interestingly, it is actually easier to have multiple classes at max level in raiding in other games, due to the fact that you are not locked in gear per class. In this game, you're encouraged to play everything on one character, which then caps your ability to gear multiple jobs. So, in addition to other games providing more customization within each class/job, they also enable you to play more than one job more easily.

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Again, you were given a choice. Get gear that will suit a specific build only, ex: tome gear, or alternatively, get gear that can work for all of the builds for your current party role, ex: raid/crafted gear. Weapons excepted of course, because of the armory mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Man you can't talk about balance in a game where anima shot existed. That's just not done.

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Lol it's in the process of being nerfed a bit actually. But it's hardly overpowered or anything, especially in curent content.

But anyway, my point stands that The Secret World is an example of a game where build diversity can and does work quite well.