I do agree with you on that, about DPS being the hardest job in the game to play correctly. However, you must also take into account that DPS is also the most accessible out of the 3 roles, being the one with the least responsibility. I have kicked bad tanks and healers, as I am sure everyone has. But, you must also take into the fact that the community curses bad tanks and healers more than it does than DPS, despite DPS being only 1 job, and that people have access to the Internet, where you can at least learn the basic rotation and practice on a dummy.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
I do agree with you that, when playing to a high standard, tank and healer is the most easiest roles to play (especially healer), but I digress. The point that I was trying to make that those who are tanking/healing are treated much more harshly than DPS, so while tanks and healers can potentially get better, DPS don't get the criticism or have accountability in their actions to improve. It's much easier to clear content with acceptable tanking and healing, than with mediocre DPS to try and clear content, because the game is disjointed from its levelling phase and endgame phase, where there's no real way to highlight what areas a DPS needs to improve in.
But as tanks and healers are very noticeable in how they operate, I'm pretty sure it's safe to be certain that it's much easier to see any of them under perform, and it's much more easier to call people out on it as people are much harsher towards them in general.
DPS Double Standard
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10-22-2015, 05:13 AMGenericMagus
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10-22-2015, 05:27 AMRisvertasashiI'd have to disagree about tanks and healers being the easiest to play (although they're easy to play badly), but more to the point... often times even in raids, if there's a DPS check failed, it's often "Tanks and healers, step up your DPS" instead of "Why is the BRD only doing 1100."Quote:
Originally Posted by GenericMagus
That said I still agree, the game needs feedback mechanisms besides "It's a wipe!". Especially since, well, this game might as well be called Final Fantasy: The DPS check. -
10-22-2015, 05:59 AMGenericMagusAs I said in the original post, in a raid setting is a different environment than what I have been using (trials and dungeons). Tanks and Healers I find easy to play well in comparison with DPS. The original post didn't factor in optimal raid situation, but rather a general approach when it comes to content that's more available to the population and what I find happens. Yes, in a raid situation, like it or not, tanks and healers have to DPS harder in order to meet the checks, rather than just have the DPS be the sole dealers of the damage, as raids require it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
And yes, this game does indeed need a way to judge how well a DPS performs. -
10-22-2015, 06:10 AMkarateorangutang
I think theres a smaller reward spectrum for DPS in this game in particular.
With the advent of large DPS checks in endgame content where Tanks and Healers are expected to throw in DPS to make up any shortcomings, then I think it's hard for some DPS mains to identify what exactly seperates them. Now, I'm completely aware that a dedicated DPS class will out DPS any non-DPS class, but the fact remains that all the roles are supposed to throw as much as they can into the DPS pot. For DPS that is their one and only duty, and for everyone else its in addition to their normal duties. I know when I'm on DPS I take it seriously..... and it still feels like a less stressful role then when im trying to push DPS on my tank and have cooldowns up for busters while postitioning a mob or group.
As much as it pains me to say it, i love current warrior, DPS would probably gain a even greater identity ( and thus a more transparent role ) by lowering the amount of damage that the tank job can throw out currently. If DPS jobs were leaned on even heavier for things like enrages and DPS checks then it would be a much more transparent job role. -
10-22-2015, 06:29 AMFebrusI beg to differ with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazeandi
You're right to say that tanks have, generally, simple rotations and that doing the bare minimum of holding aggro is easy. That's true. A tank can go into any dungeon and spam their AoE enmity move (even the pitifully under-powered Flash) and cycle in the occasional enmity combo and be "doing their jobs;" however, that does not mean that they are doing their jobs well.
If we're comparing "bad" Dps to "bad " tanks, than simply holding aggro with enmity combos is the equivalent of a Dps going into a dungeon and rotating their primary combo without DoT's, positionals, or buffs, or simply spamming their AoE because it's a big pull and there's more than 3 enemies (Dur, that means I'm doing more dmg, right? No. Just no... -_-)
If we're comparing "good" Dps (applies buffs, cycles a proper rotation, uses DoT's and follow positions) to "good" tanks, than the tank's job does not stop at simply keeping aggro. Being a "good" tank requires managing aggro while outputting maximum Dmg, while keeping up all of the necessary buffs/debuffs that they can apply, while paying attention to the actual mechanics of the fight (when applicable) to make sure they don't accidentally cleave the group, or are ready to apply the right buffs at just the right time. This actually requires the tank to completely memorize certain fights, especially hard fights when the team has to be at their best to clear, so they know the exact rotations of the boss and apply their buffs accordingly. Dps who follow a fixed rotation (regardless of how complicated that rotation is) is simple by comparison.
I see a lot of tanks in regular dungeons when I run on my Drg who think they're "good" just because they can hold aggro. Meanwhile, the Dps are doing practically all the Dps, because the tank is focusing on only one aspect of his/her job, or the healer is over-healing because the tank is not managing the incoming damage well enough. Holding aggro does not make for top-end tanking. The problem with tanking standards are not that the standards are low. The problem is that people measure the worth of the tank by only one facet of their job and fail to see the whole picture. It's understandable, considering the full worth of a Tank is not as easy to see as it is with Dps. No one can really tell if the Tank is maxing their output without parsing, and only the healer really knows if the tank is not applying their buffs correctly and they've been over-healing. -
10-22-2015, 06:56 AMZojhaIt's...a bit ironic that you try to refute the point that DPSing is more complicated by stating that a tank's job starts to get really complicated if you try to maximize your DPS while tanking...Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Maybe that's just me, though. -
10-22-2015, 10:23 AMArchaellI would say that "while tanking" is the important part. It is like trying to do positionals when the mob is hitting your face. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Tanks and healers have to "stop" their main job to do dps. While DDs can do their job the whole time. That's the important difference.
The main reason why tanking and healing is viewed as more difficult is because you aren't just responsible for the way you play, you also have to keep an eye on your party members and react to their actions. DDs don't have to do this as much. -
10-22-2015, 12:52 PMShirobi
Actually, its been my experience that DPS are often held to much higher standards than healers or tanks and are expected to carry the fight and get kicked at the drop of a hat over the smallest mistake. Meantime, the healers and tanks seem to get infinite "Ooops my bads."s or "Sorry, cat was on fire gotta go AFK midboss fight"s.
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10-22-2015, 02:41 PMValkyrie-Amber
lol as a dps we are easy to replace if we don't do above the average recorded dps.
For some reason people that play tanks and healers thinks its fine not to dps at all and yet enter savage content and unless all 4 dps is il 200+ they isn't going to be able to carry lackluster I only tank tanks and I only heal healers.
A1S Faust:
I will raise a good example my barding majorly sucked this day lag wise + drinking missing many procs... but we did 10 attempts a1s. my dps was shocking that day 850 I wont lie. However the other 3 dps were 1.2k+ then warrior main tank 550-580dps and dark off tank was doing 130-150 dps and healers the whm 250ish and the ast 7.6dps but people only blamed the brd and yet im sure all see I may have been a major issue but the group failed to believe that anyone else was lacking.
Then I switched drg all 4 dps were around 1.25k 1.3k 20 runs more and guess what we still wiped cause the tanks and healers didn't dps much and I will add the fact I barely play BRD and only entered that static as one cause the tank and drg slot was taken. my pld could have done more dps than that war and drk combined and yet plds seen as junk by many including I cause I'm used to tanks doing good tank dps. let alone healers not even dotting. -
10-22-2015, 05:11 PMFebrusYou're right. It does sound ironic lol, but, as Archaell pointed out, you have to read the whole sentence and see the whole picture. It's doing maximum Dps output while doing all of the other things that tanks have to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Keep in mind that for every extra amount of Dps that a Tank does, he or she is intentionally taking away from their actual tanking. For example, for every time a PLD uses Royal Authority over Rage of Halone, they are intentionally losing part of their enmity combo which can be applied to a target. On top of that, they also lose a 10% strength reduction to the target that would have gotten hit with RoH. So, in favour of doing dmg, they're reducing their enmity and increasing the amount of incoming dmg. Thinking about dropping Shield Oath for Sword Oath to do more dmg to a boss? Well that loses you your enmity multiplier (which is a factor of x2 for a Pld) and increasing the dmg you take by 20%. Meaning you gotta compensate for that with proper buff application. On top of that, you still have to pay attention to the entire parties hp and position, as well as take care of any tank specific mechs.
Just holding aggro is easy. Holding aggro while maximizing your potential to help the group is a whole different ballgame.