Please stop asking for paladin DPS buffs.

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Originally Posted by ExiaQuanta

I think someone has said on this forum before but, when it comes down to it, there is nothing "wrong" with PLD.
that a PLD's higher survival rate is being over looked.

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There is something "wrong".
Lowest hate gain.
No AoE damage.
Single target damage falls behind.
Utility kit broken and useless with any half way decent mages.
Worse Tank to "stance dance" on.
Shield swipe is now currently a waste of space on my hot bar.

Paladin's "higher survival rate" comes in the form of it's shield and "simplistic nature". It takes less damage over all through out in a fight, but the damage mitigation comes from auto-attacks, the same damage healers don't really care about unless SE turns around and makes Auto-attacks a thing to be afraid of. Making it's "higher survival rate" useless outside of consistent heavy hitting auto attacks, like in A2.

Nothing is wrong with PLD if all you do are dungeons or A2 where a lot of mobs are present where it's shield will put to use it's other wise non existent "higher survival rate." Other than that both DRK and WAR have the CD'S to live quite comfortably through tank busters and the more I look at it, this includes physical ones as well. PLD either needs a good utility kit and higher hate generation or a Dps increase and a slightly higher hate generation increase.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Pretty much this, basic stuff should be equal between all tanks but flavor should come from utility. This actually applies to healers and DD's aswell.

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The two problems I have with that is;

1. The tank totem pole will just be governed by the utility they bring relative to the tier; it is the nature of haves and have-nots.

2. 'Class flavour' loses impact when they only look different. E.g. WARs are sold as the offensively minded brute, if a PLD was doing as much DPS as them it would certainly ruin the appeal for me. As I imagine for PLDs if the situation was reversed and WARs became the go-to invincible tank (which is the case currently? PLD mitigation not standing-out enough?).

I'd prefer SE to double down on that distinction - make PLDs even tankier (or supportierer) - then sprinkle in some fights where that mitigation makes the fight much, much easier (the same way WAR dps makes meeting an enrage easier). Instead of making the insane dude with a 2Handed axe do as much damage as the girl hiding behind his shield.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Your first posts didn't sound like that at all. You were speaking as if you wanted homogenization, you never said that it was a fantasy or such things. I wouldn't be bothered about them having the same tools. As long as the way to use these tools are different, it's fine. We need balance, but it could be done in more imaginative ways than what the majority of players are proposing. I'd be OK if they just increased PLD damage, but it would sound a bit lazy to me.

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Yea, i think the same way too. Just increasing PLD dps is upright lazy implementation and short sighted. Eg, making drg having lesser M.def than all other jobs for lore wise while releasing end game raids that deals so much m.attack making drg unable to go to raids is a bad design on SE part. Enrage timer is also a bad design to be re cycled so often while some jobs will be rejected for it's lack of dps. Right now the end game raid is SO dps based that you will see some jobs being rejected. To me, now that there is 3 tanks. As a player you should be at least playing 2 like what many mage players do in 2.0 so that it'll mitigate the problem for a period of time until SE find a suitable solution for it and not just buff dps. I blame SE partly for changing a job because alot people wanted it to be changed in this way. Resulting in petitions like what is happening right now

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

1. The tank totem pole will just be governed by the utility they bring relative to the tier; it is the nature of haves and have-nots.

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Well Warriors are already doing this with their SP, no sane group will do any serious raid content without WAR due this utility(on top of that they do amazing dps while having a good if not best migitation amongst all 3 tanks). That debuff blows away all other tank debuffs because it affects all damage done by boss not just magical or physical, even TA is not that good because it has limited uptime.

Currently you simply cannot replace warrior no matter what fight you are doing(well you can but that is just hindering your group), i wonder how DRK/PLD groups were doing in first weeks or even now? havent seen anyone mentioning using this setup in savage.

I love how everyone is against PLD buffs on the basis of it making them overpowered/homogenized, but the same people are totally okay with WAR completely outclassing the other tanks and even threatening to overtake actual dps jobs in some scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Well Warriors are already doing this with their SP, no sane group will do any serious raid content without WAR due this utility(on top of that they do amazing dps while having a good if not best migitation amongst all 3 tanks). That debuff blows away all other tank debuffs because it affects all damage done by boss not just magical or physical, even TA is not that good because it has limited uptime.

Currently you simply cannot replace warrior no matter what fight you are doing(well you can but that is just hindering your group), i wonder how DRK/PLD groups were doing in first weeks or even now? havent seen anyone mentioning using this setup in savage.

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I agree, but you know as well as I do, WARs aren't considered OP because of SP; it's just another reason they dominate the scene. My point being that If they have equal mitigation and DPS, their value will be determined soley on the usage of their utility relative to the tier.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

I agree, but you know as well as I do, WARs aren't considered OP because of SP; it's just another reason they dominate the scene. My point being that If they have equal mitigation and DPS, their value will be determined soley on the usage of their utility relative to the tier.

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Which is fine, because it means that all tanks can do the content and just that some will be slightly better suited than others for certain aspects of certain fights. That's as close to balanced as you're going to get in an MMO, the only way to avoid that is to make every tank literally exactly the same with no utility, the same mitigation, and the same damage.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Which is fine, because it means that all tanks can do the content and just that some will be slightly better suited than others for certain aspects of certain fights. That's as close to balanced as you're going to get in an MMO, the only way to avoid that is to make every tank literally exactly the same with no utility, the same mitigation, and the same damage.

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All the tanks can do the content as of now (on fights that specifically do not favour the PLD tool-kit, imagine if they did), it just requires extra effort on the part of other team-members. It will be no different post homogenization of performance; some tanks will bring utility specifically good for X raid-tier, which will bench the less optimal classes. People will be here with the exact same arguments. If you search for distinctions, you will find distinctions.

It also doesn't really address the amount of gray-paint this approach brings. I've been down this road with WoW, it's why the game is fucking boring.

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

it just requires extra effort on the part of other team-members.

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For me this is currently the major issue, i really, really dont want to use job that needs to either wait for overgearing or get carried by other team-members as it goes against my nature. Now if i had some uber utility that covers current weakness, lets say i could boost other members DPS to compensate my own shorcomings then it would be totally fine.

But it this doesnt really matter anymore as i already have DRK leveld and statred to gear it up just so i can use it for fights that requires that extra push, might continue WAR leveling as it seems double WAR could propably make fights even easier, atleast when you dont need LB anymore(not sure but it might already be 2xWAR > LB in therms of raw damage on the longrun).

PS: If the thing is true and next tier has more physical damage then it seems DRK might be screwed and i need yet again change to other tank job... if this happens i will simply just roll WAR because that dude doesnt give a fuck what kind of damage he takes, im not really arsed to swap and gear between 2 tanks everytime new tier hits.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

For me this is currently the major issue, i really, really dont want to use job that needs to either wait for overgearing or get carried by other team-members as it goes against my nature. Now if i had some uber utility that covers current weakness, lets say i could boost other members DPS to compensate my own shorcomings then it would be totally fine.

But it this doesnt really matter anymore as i already have DRK leveld and statred to gear it up just so i can use it for fights that requires that extra push, might continue WAR leveling as it seems double WAR could propably make fights even easier, atleast when you dont need LB anymore(not sure but it might already be 2xWAR > LB in therms of raw damage on the longrun).

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Don't get me wrong, I believe PLDs need adjustments. I just think their weaknesses are exacerbated by the content and the subsequent result is being exaggerated by a factor of 9 Vigintillion.

I'd prefer to see them get a boost to their support and/or survivability and a more diverse tier of bosses that can put that boost to use. I do not want to see direct DPS buffs on a class sold as a reliable, but benign brick-wall. That being said it is far more difficult to balance this way; but I'm glad Square is going to try.