My Opinion about the Dark knights need redesigning threads.

It's clear this isn't a thread you wanted for constructive conversation.

I'll leave you now to stand on your soapbox and deliver the good word of how amazing DRK is right now and how awesome of a tank you are, despite your own admittance of not knowing how Blood Price even works.

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Originally Posted by Lionheart401

i get bigger chunks back at a time on bosses maybe because blood price scales with the attack

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The fact remains there's design choices in a few abilities that, not only do they not work well in practice, but break the DRK's own theme. I honestly cannot understand how anyone who's tanked with all classes as you claim you have can objectively look at the DRK and say that there's absolutely no flaws in any of the abilities or how they work.

If you're still in love with the class because it's new and shiny, fine, I get that. But try looking at every ability objectively and tell me there's absolutely nothing wrong with any of them.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

The only magic damage in Ravana EX (As fara s I know) are the hadoukens, and the split damage AOE after pillars of heaven. None of which do any bit threatening damage.

All the damage that matters is physical. Also, Dragons Kick > Delirium. Half the time I cant even put Delirioum on Ravan for some reason, and we don't have a Monk.

Also, Wars out DPS Drk's in OT situations ESPECIALLY, simply due to TP. Equilibrium keeps a Wars TP afloat. Drk burns their TP in literally 3 Blood Weapons if they have constant uptime.

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TP isn't a valid argument in a fight like Ravana where you are constantly not fighting to avoid mechanics. On top of having BRD/MCH for regen. Also I highly doubt Equilibrium maintains a WAR for much longer, granted I'm only 52 with WAR atm, but when I played DRG/MNK in coil even with Invigorate I typically bottomed out around after 3 - 4 mins of pure fighting and needed BRD song. Our dummy tests used a BRD to keep TP going just so we could get an accurate test, which showed them all the same. I guess if you don't have MCH/BRD and you fought long enough the WAR would win out because of TP maintenance, but how much longer can they go with 200 TP every 60s?

Threatening damage or not, reducing raid wide damage is a bonus regardless of how much it is. Do I wish DRK brought more utility? Yes, but they do at least bring some with a stackable damage reduction (reprisal and storm's path), and -10% INT. PLD/DRK will be a pretty poor tanking combo, but DRK/WAR has some nice utility.

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Why do you assume people don't know their tanking just because they say Dark Knight has some issues that could use adjusting? This entire thread is silly

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i say it because the adjustments most people ask for on these forums are a lot. i think most of these adjustments would make tanking as a dark knight a lot easier f course but it's suppose to be challanging. thats what makes it fun. im not assuming people on here do not know how to play the class. I think some of the gripes people have been displaying with the class will disappear overtime.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

A good War will pull more than a Drk, not by a lot, but it's definitely not an insane amount.

That is, for the duration of a Drk's TP. A War will never run out of TP, or at least not very fast, if at all. A Drk will burn their TP less than halfway into the fight if they have 0 downtime between skills, and they have absolutely no way to recover their TP...

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you wont run out of mp because you'll have blood price and syphon combos giving you mp back. you only need one dark arts enmity combo to drown everyone else's hate. Ive never ran out of TP as a dark idk why you say they run out so fast. most of the moves are based on mp except the weaponskills. managing tp is a warriors problem that why they gave warriors that ability.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

The only thing iI would like to see changed is that int debuff taken off and replaced with a buff to yourself that mitigates damage by 5 or 10%. Or whatever would be balanced.

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My issue with this is it overwrites Souleater as DRK's personal EHP increase, and removes the party-wide utility of Delirium.

That makes for 2 WSs branching off Syphon that do the same thing, both of which only benefiting the DRK.

Delirium is the higher(highest) potency WS (unbuffed), IMO it's additional effect should remain a party-wide utility debuff (whether it's allowing it to stack with DK or give it a different utility effect all together is welcomed).

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Originally Posted by Lionheart401

Ive never ran out of TP as a dark idk why you say they run out so fast.

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It depends on the fight. For fights that reach TP-starved durations (Fractal Cont final boss being a lvl60 example), DRK will reach TP starve before PLD or WAR (unless WAR was excessively hitting Overpower, which idk how smart that is). PLD's TP conservation comes at 210 potency per GCD, DRK's is 170 and 100 per GCD, but also subtracts from MP pool.

Since I'm use to the Tank's TP starve in 2.x I'm not so troubled with it, but as content is released it may become a more apparent disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

TP isn't a valid argument in a fight like Ravana where you are constantly not fighting to avoid mechanics. On top of having BRD/MCH for regen. Also I highly doubt Equilibrium maintains a WAR for much longer, granted I'm only 52 with WAR atm, but when I played DRG/MNK in coil even with Invigorate I typically bottomed out around after 3 - 4 mins of pure fighting and needed BRD song. Our dummy tests used a BRD to keep TP going just so we could get an accurate test, which showed them all the same. I guess if you don't have MCH/BRD and you fought long enough the WAR would win out because of TP maintenance, but how much longer can they go with 200 TP every 60s?

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TP is a huge problem when you're doing raid fights like T10/T11, especially at the start with low DPS. A DRK would be out of TP super quick there.

With Berserk's pacification, Fell Cleave and Equilibrium, WAR has literally unlimited TP. I can go on a dummy for 5 minutes and come out at 1000 TP. I don't even drop to 740 (the point where you should pop Equilibrium) until nearly 3m in. As MT, WAR's TP conservation is almost as good, and there's nothing to stop you popping into Deliverance for a few GCDs to use Equilibrium if it really is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Arkard

It's clear this isn't a thread you wanted for constructive conversation.

I'll leave you now to stand on your soapbox and deliver the good word of how amazing DRK is right now and how awesome of a tank you are, despite your own admittance of not knowing how Blood Price even works....

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i didn't admit that about the blood price ability. the tool tip doesn't say exactly how it works it just says it gives a portion of mp back to you. so i cant definitively say how it works. "Blood Price 35 0 Instant 40s 0y 0y Restores partial MP when damage is taken. Duration: 15s". they are not design flaws, they are design differences. if you look at every class in the game you can rip them all apart if you want to compare them to their counterparts. Im not trying to brag about how i play and im not trying to criticize other players. i feel they are ok now. all the tanks do the same things just in a different way

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Originally Posted by Launched

TP is a huge problem when you're doing raid fights like T10/T11, especially at the start with low DPS. A DRK would be out of TP super quick there.

With Berserk's pacification, Fell Cleave and Equilibrium, WAR has literally unlimited TP. I can go on a dummy for 5 minutes and come out at 1000 TP. I don't even drop to 740 (the point where you should pop Equilibrium) until nearly 3m in. As MT, WAR's TP conservation is almost as good, and there's nothing to stop you popping into Deliverance for a few GCDs to use Equilibrium if it really is a problem.

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I could easily burn my TP when DPS testing my WAR pre HW. I lasted a bit longer because of Wrath attacks and pacify but eventually ran out. If I used Fracture it was even faster. Also we aren't talking about T10/11 because they are irrelevant at this point. The new classes were designed with what's coming in mind not what's behind.

Don't get me wrong, WAR will always have my heart. Played WAR/NIN in FFXI, played WAR in 1.0, played WAR at release when they were "garbage" and got through coil (minus T5, that took a while) just fine. Leveling my WAR now to be ready for Alex release, but DRK tanks just fine in all current content. I've yet to feel stressed, or feel like I'm taking to much damage compared to any other tank. The TP drain is real with Blood Weapon, but our BRD typically keeps me going.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

TP isn't a valid argument in a fight like Ravana where you are constantly not fighting to avoid mechanics. On top of having BRD/MCH for regen. Also I highly doubt Equilibrium maintains a WAR for much longer, granted I'm only 52 with WAR atm, but when I played DRG/MNK in coil even with Invigorate I typically bottomed out around after 3 - 4 mins of pure fighting and needed BRD song. Our dummy tests used a BRD to keep TP going just so we could get an accurate test, which showed them all the same. I guess if you don't have MCH/BRD and you fought long enough the WAR would win out because of TP maintenance, but how much longer can they go with 200 TP every 60s?

Threatening damage or not, reducing raid wide damage is a bonus regardless of how much it is. Do I wish DRK brought more utility? Yes, but they do at least bring some with a stackable damage reduction (reprisal and storm's path), and -10% INT. PLD/DRK will be a pretty poor tanking combo, but DRK/WAR has some nice utility.

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In Ravana EX TP may not be, but I've seen Drk's get out DPS'd by Wars a few times in Ravana. Not all fights have that many downtimes however. In Bismarck EX for example, I've nearly ran out of TP a few times.

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Originally Posted by Lionheart401

you wont run out of mp because you'll have blood price and syphon combos giving you mp back. you only need one dark arts enmity combo to drown everyone else's hate. Ive never ran out of TP as a dark idk why you say they run out so fast. most of the moves are based on mp except the weaponskills. managing tp is a warriors problem that why they gave warriors that ability.

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You're level 59, doing dungeons that hardly matter, against DPS who are likely not so geared and are still in the process of learning their new skills. Of course 1 Dark Arts Power Slash is going to generate a butt ton of Enmity when the rest of the group likely isn't.

At 60, against DPS who know what they're doing, 1 Power Slash, hell even buffed with Dark Arts (Which doesn't increase it's enmity as much as people think it does) wont do much for you. It's enough to put you in the lead for long enough to be able to drop Grit for a Blood Weapon, but unless you're pushing out some heavy tank DPS at a constant, another DPS is going to pull off of you.

There have been fights where literally the only time I ever did my enmity combo was twice in the very start, then I dropped Grit and never enabled it nor used my enmity combo again.

Then there have been fights where the DPS were too good for that and I had to enable Grit a few times just to ensure I stay ahead in threat.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

I could easily burn my TP when DPS testing my WAR pre HW. I lasted a bit longer because of Wrath attacks and pacify but eventually ran out. If I used Fracture it was even faster. Also we aren't talking about T10/11 because they are irrelevant at this point. The new classes were designed with what's coming in mind not what's behind.

Don't get me wrong, WAR will always have my heart. Played WAR/NIN in FFXI, played WAR in 1.0, played WAR at release when they were "garbage" and got through coil (minus T5, that took a while) just fine. Leveling my WAR now to be ready for Alex release, but DRK tanks just fine in all current content. I've yet to feel stressed, or feel like I'm taking to much damage compared to any other tank. The TP drain is real with Blood Weapon, but our BRD typically keeps me going.

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Irrelevant or not, it's a type of fight we've commonly seen in the past, and one we're likely going to be seeing again. We should not have to rely on a Bards reduced damage to keep my TP going instead of the mages MP, or a Nin's 2 min cd as a tank instead of a DPS who could put that TP to high damage for pushes.

And yes, Pre Heavensward Warrior had TP issues (I was one of them), but fact is, they don't anymore. Drk does, along with the plethora of other issues they seem to have, even outside of just balancing. It really feels as if Drk was designed for 2.0, and it's missing the 'wow' factor to it that the other 2 tanks got with the Heavensward update.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

My issue with this is it overwrites Souleater as DRK's personal EHP increase, and removes the party-wide utility of Delirium.

That makes for 2 WSs branching off Syphon that do the same thing, both of which only benefiting the DRK.

Delirium is the higher potency WS (unbuffed), IMO it's additional effect should remain a party-wide utility debuff (whether it's allowing it to stack with DK or give it a different utility effect all together is welcomed)...

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you prove a good point with what you said about the two combos overlapping eachother and the tp becoming a problem in the future. i havent been able to do the lvl 60 content just yet unfortunately (can't wait!). the tp statement is a good one, i havent thoroughly looked into tp efficiency. ill have to look out for it in the future.