Primals, and their nature?

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Before being summoned, primals are drifting the Lifestream like any other fragment of aether waiting to have a purpose, but upon entering our physical realm - the "waking world" - they are given that and take on their own, specific and indestructible identity. This is why they cannot truly be destroyed. Their essense, their unique blend of "aetheric DNA" if you will, simply waits to be summoned back, sacrificing up the aether in crystals their worshippers offer in abundance.

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Incidentally, in relation to the idea above, I had wondered in another thread whether it's possible to think of the aether/Lifestream as a "sea of information", from which new forms of life may emerge.

As Applesnap suggests, once created, the "aetheric DNA" of a primal continues to exist in the aether. All it needs is even more aether for it to take corporeal form once more. But this makes me ask a very familiar philosophical question: Which came first? The thing or the idea of the thing? Did the primals exist since the dawn of time, or were they created by the prayers of worshippers? If the primals didn't exist before prayer, how did the worshippers even "know" who they were trying to summon in the first place?

It's a real shame, I think, that RPG worlds don't typically feature philosophers and thinkers. Because these questions would make for very interesting lore discussions. Meanwhile, it's back to pew-pew and more hack-and-slash. ;)

It's interesting you mention the idea of Primals being simply a manifestation of their worshippers' wishes and desires, as this is actually a common idea SE has used before in past FF games (for instance, the Eidolons in FFIX were created from human myth and legend, and would actually change their appearance as the stories and cultural memes that gave them life changed with each retelling - in fact, there was even an instance where it was clearly shown what happens to an eidolon when the stories which bore it die out - they completely lose all shape and just became a bizarre multicolored sphere (Ozma was an example of this). FFXIII's Eidolons took the form of what was in an i'cie's heart, essentially reflecting their personality.

In much the same way, it definitely rings true that the Primals here do indeed take the form of what their summoners desire them to be, albeit a darker, twisted version that corrupts whomever summons them in order to remain anchored in the corporeal realm, as its not just aether that is needed to sustain them, but devotion and worship.

As for the 'chicken and egg' situation in regards to the Primals origins (and the myths of their namesakes),I think the answer is already there in plain sight - if the idea that myth and legend gives form to the Primals, then the Primals have always existed before the current myths and legends of the gods were formed by the various races, especially if the FFIX example I mentioned above is applied. This makes even more sense when you remember in the SMN quest line, how Tristan summons the egi of a supposed unknown 'elder Primal' called 'Belias', which just appears as a larger, purple toned version of Ifrit-Egi. I suggested in an earlier thread that although Belias-egi's form was probably for technical reasons, the fact it resembled Ifrit-Egi does make one start to suspect that the Primals may change form depending on how the stories about them are told, Belias possibly being an ancient form of Ifrit for instance. Either way, a Primal's 'essence' ('aetheric DNA' as you termed it RedLeaf), is probably the only thing consistent, as a Primals form is of course, just a temporary shell that would obviously take the form desired by their summoner. But now I'm rambling.... :p

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Incidentally, in relation to the idea above, I had wondered in another thread whether it's possible to think of the aether/Lifestream as a "sea of information", from which new forms of life may emerge.

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Though, this would imply that all primals draw their knowledge from this shared consciousness - an idea which was brutally murdered by the unforgiving Triple Triad card featuring Ramuh. (so salty)

So, while they may all be from the "aetherial sea", each entity must also be self-contained.

I agree for the most part with Enkidoh, in that primals came before men, but they still must've been created at some point, by something or someone...right? My theory is still under construction (but It's Probably Pirates Paragons).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Those are both two massive inconsistence which aren't explained, worse they're created by the Trial story.

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I sort of had it in my mind that Zantetsuken actually has two methods for manifesting an Odin body. The first is what we witness in the Trial - the next to touch Zantetsuken after Odin's defeat becomes Sundered, and becomes the next Odin. The second is what happens if NO ONE touches Zantetsuken (or is protected by the Echo): Zantetsuken creates a new body from scratch - out of Aether, perhaps - and out of respect for the individual who defeated him, crafts it to resemble that person.

The former method would be Zantetsuken's preferred method as it takes less effort, but neither does it want to just lay around in the dirt when it could be finding glorious new battles to participate in. And if you think that manifesting a body seems far-fetched, well, in EITHER case, where does Sleipnir come from? Since Zantetsuken already needs to pull a horse out of its metaphorical ass, it's not ALL that unreasonable that it gets a body from the same place.

None of this addresses the issue of how Zantetsuken stays manifested with no worshipers or crystals, but it does cover the seeming inconsistencies between how Odin obtains a body in the trial, and how he gets one after a FATE appearance.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But this makes me ask a very familiar philosophical question: Which came first? The thing or the idea of the thing?

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Prior to being manifest for the first time, I believe primals don't exist. I meant to imply that they are just like any other piece of non-descript aether in the Lifestream; something that died or passed into the aetheric realm and is awaiting an "assigment", as it were. A primal's birth is a metaphysical, metaphoric one. Their creation is the advent of an idea, of an ardent wish for something or someone to save their people from whatever peril they are mired in.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

FFXIII's Eidolons took the form of what was in an i'cie's heart, essentially reflecting their personality.

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I was going to mention this earlier, but the fal'Cie from the Fabula Nova Crystallis universe (XIII / XIII-2 / Type-0 / XV) are the same as our primals. Here's the quote:

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"In the Famitsu magazine in June 2009, the fal'Cie were revealed to be formed from the crystals residing inside of them that act as their energy sources. The director of the game, Motomu Toriyama, described the fal'Cie as 'god machines surrounding the crystals'."

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A primal's true form is just an aetherically-charged crystal mass, around which it builds a physical body. The most irrefutable evidence of this is at the end of T5, where you get to the small area and see what's waiting there. That's why Bahamut looks artificial, with cables and tubes and conduits, because he technically is. See:

http://xasz.net/wp-content/uploads/2...7314841717.png

Bahamut Prime is in that screenshot. Not the head, but the immense purple crystal "heart" itself, around which Bahamut's body is being re-constructed. Our proof of this being a primal's real form is in the World of Darkness, where we fight the three Atomi on separate platforms. In the centre is Atomos Prime; a mass of red crystal that doesn't look anything like its chosen physical form. This is why primals never leave behind a corpse. Their "body" is just an incredibly intricate construct made out of aether - not really a giant sea serpent or flaming horned beast or mythical moogle king.

Although, this realisation brings about new questions: if a primal's crystal heart can be shattered in the physical realm, can its essense be trapped in the aetheric realm, unable to be resummoned again? Will it then eventually dissipate into nothingness until it's reassigned a new purpose?

Well considering that we know nothing of the aetherial realm ( except that it's basically the afterlife ), who knows if you can trap anything in there. I wouldn't dare to try to close the connexion between the physical and aetherial realms, as all the spirits would wander in the physical realms that would result in chaos.

What we know of the primals is simple, a spirit ( Usually a deified ancestor or a god from the age of gods ) from the aetherial realm called by prayers gather aethers to create a crystal core for its soul ( [Primal's name]-Prime ) then create a "body" of aether which can even be an item, like the Zantetsuken ( It's unknown though if the primal choses the body or if the worshippers give him his body ), the more aether they uses, the stronger they become. That's what a primal is.

So yes, it should be possible to trap their soul and make it impossible for them to eat aether to prevent them from returning, but then they would just have to worship another spirit to replace him.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Theory

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Well this sounds familiar - Far before WoD, but the core is the same.

Perhaps, when summoned, the prime inhabits the offered crystals, pushing the elementally aspected aether out to create its primal form. If that's the case, then a primal, once summoned, no longer needs crystallized aether (it's already made it's home of crystals) but is able to draw aether from the environment, akin to what we know of Odin, Black and White Mages. In the same vein, it no longer requires worship, as it's already present and has its will/motive. Though, directly feeding it aether in any form would obviously strengthen its body, so this prime would probably temper its followers and have them continue praying/feeding if power is something it desires (See: Garuda).

On your question; I'd say that the 'crystal heart' is destroyed every time it's defeated and its spirit is sent back into the aetherial realm. However, that heart can be recreated again and again by assembling enough crystals to do so, allowing the prime to once again come forth into it. This is in-line with what we know of summoning and summoners - the only way to stop it from ever happening is to kill anyone who can make it happen (which would be everyone).

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

the only way to stop it from ever happening is to kill anyone who can make it happen (which would be everyone).

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I'd like to retract this statement. If primes/primals operate how we're speculating, you technically could kill the true prime itself, but we'd need some serious help. Just because we defeat Bahamut Prime in T13 doesn't mean he can't be summoned again. This is because, going back to TinyRedLeaf's theory, his presence is recorded in time, in memories, thererfore imprinted upon the aether. So, while a primal may be controlled by a prime residing in its crystal heart, killing said prime can't erase its "aetherial dna" from the aetherial realm, from time and from the memories of living beings.

Thus, the only way to truly kill a prime would be A) Go back in time and wipe the figure, real or not, from history, B) Erase the memory of it from every living being on the planet in the present, or C) Kill everyone.


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Forumuser4: "Uh, Vik, this is all well and good, but it doesn't explain how primals were created in the first place."

Are you sure about that, Forumuser4?

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Originally Posted by Y'shtola

And so myth becomes reality...

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When a previously living being's "soul" returns to the "aetherial sea", it carries with it its knowledge, conscious and memories. This means that all someone has to do to birth a new primal is create a myth, a legend, a hero, etc. Once that memory is among the aether, it's separated from reality (pun kinda intended) and logic - it becomes real, so to speak.

Summoning is simply calling that memory, that mental image out of the aether and giving it the means by which to physically manifest.

Belias and Ifrit could be the same mythological fire deity, but since it was called a different name by a different people it became something separate. Imagine if summoning was real, on Earth, Mars and Ares are basically the same deity in mythology, but of different cultures, therefore they would be different entities when called forth from the memories of ancient Greeks or Romans.

Now, the question remains, "Who made these myths, and by doing so, created primals?" And I absolutely, 100%, do not know. It could have been literally anyone throughout history or even the Ascians themselves.