Novus Bow? Stats?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

"skill speed is shit"

"Everyone who uses a gear calculator would know" "everyone knows" "technically not absolute" "just as a guideline" on how much main stat and secondary stat you can try to exchange, within a reasonable band?

"believe"

The current, widely used and accepted stat weights doesn't even account for extreme stacking builds like 2.5 BRDs which can carry them to the extremes of 700 CRIT.

"unfortunately I don't think it is".

My CRIT-DET Yoichi outparses the Augmented Magitek 80% of the time. I'm not even talking about a couple of parses. I'm talking about over 50 parses and upwards and days after days of testing. Do you bring your builds out to test and justify your builds or you simply follow a calculator?


And since you wondered why I quadmeld IV instead of pentameld IV with Skill Speed IV: because I intend to quadmeld IV with Vit IV but prices are insane on Tonberry right now. Why Vit IV? Yes, Skill Speed is shit, I'd say that again. If you even recall, crafted gear in Patch 2.2 progression comes naturally with shit load of Skill Speed. I have full set crafted gear for 2.2 progression and my GCD was at 2.30s at that point in time. What's the benefit? 2-3 more shots over an entire coil turn, but running out of TP nearly as fast as your DRG/MNK in T8? Nah I'm not going to be bothered with Skill Speed, really.

I'm not going to blindly follow some numbers - I'm a person who brings a build out to thoroughly test them for effectiveness. Experience and data from 2.2 until now says it.

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Look at all those opinions! believe, think, everyone knows, guidelines. blah blah blah. Ok.

As for stat weights not accounting for extreme stacking, did no not real my post at all!? this wasn't fking calculated with statweights, the value of bloodletter was calculated based on the current crit number which then gave a valid relative value of stacking crit like crazy (which by the way goes down not up as you stack it). Same thing for skillspeed where the lower it gets each new point is valued more, but a stat weight calculation values all the same. I agree with you that statweights arn't a good way to calculate this shit.

I'd love to see the results of this 50+ tests on which build is better, send me a message through reddit my username is /u/MrYaah.

As for the empty melds, You're gonna meld a vit IV on your hat are you? Really?

Here, I forgot I actually did the math so insane people like you can have your glorious ss free builds

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PT8V

This isn't a proven 0 Skillspeed BiS, I cannot guaruntee that there are no better meld sets with 0 skillspeed because I didn't put the time into calculating this that I put into the other absolute BiS. the post explaning the logic I used to calculate it is here

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...rd_bis/corv8ij

You will notice WoD chest and crafted gloves. When I get to work I'm going to take the time to make a proven no skillspeed bis to prove one way or the other, even by your, in my opinion, illogical standards, whether or not WoD chest is BiS

Checked the math, turns out that the set I linked is infact exactly the 0 skillspeed bis set, proven according to math, which we all know you believe is hogwash and black magic that must for the sake of progress be disregarded in favor of inconsistent parses and inadequate subjective analysis.

I wish you the best.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

I'd love to see the results of this 50+ tests on which build is better, send me a message through reddit my username is /u/MrYaah.

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To make things clear - with reference to my previous post I am referring to Augmented Magitek VS Yoichi itself. I would love to test your build but that requires me the very least, to re-meld my accessories + obtain a crafted hands+belt with your specified meld. It is not a cheap to do so at current prices.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

As for the empty melds, You're gonna meld a vit IV on your hat are you? Really?

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I'd agree that you do have valid point out there whilst I do not understand the program you wrote (I am not good with those stuff, in fact it took me some time to understand the basic functions and mechanics behind ACT itself). You obviously knew that I am referring to the right-hand-side stuffs. Who on earth at does crafting, pentamelding, endgame raiding plus some theorycrafting doesn't know a HQ'd left-hand-side cannot accept any more main stat and vitality melds?

If you are wondering about my crafted hat so much: it was made and melded on day-1. No one knew the stat caps and the only way you could know is to actually do it. And probably you have to dump every IV you can so that you max out stat per slot. That was how it ended up with, and as you would have guessed, other pieces such as the belt and shoes are all ended up quad IV melds if ignoring Skill Speed. And of course I'd end out with shit ton of accuracy, but again no one knows what is the accuracy requirements as well. No one knows on day one which piece drops from which turn, and certain drops are without accuracy, and without knowing acc caps further down the turns, maxing acc on each piece if possible is just a play-safe measure.

By preference and by cost, I've chosen not to meld in Skill Speed.
(for some reason or another, even Quickarm IV went out of stock and whenever it was replenished, it commands in the 200k range. It was simply cost inefficient and too expensive to meld it on the 5th slot)


In any case we have derailed. My original reply to you was saying that the crafted hands, belt and augmented ironworks ring isn't BiS. Specifically referring to this 3 items, I did not say that the link you have provided is actually a BiS set. Simple.

And there after you started with your sarcasms which I think it is a shame. You tried to reason with math but you ended them with attacks with every of your reply. Not that I am angry or offended, I don't have a reddit account but I've read your reddit posts since you have invited with your username, but I don't think it does justice to the debate here. I'm trying to debate reasonably without calling you with terms like "which i know is literally the only thing you think mister", "which we all know you believe is hogwash and black magic", "Here, I forgot I actually did the math so insane people like you can have your glorious ss free builds (you impling those bards which you have had a discussion with who preferred to shun Skill Speed are insane too?)", whatsoever, but you are doing otherwise.

If you'd like to present your high level work and research which you are very much proud of (and a good reason to) but to only end it with personal attacks then I don't think it is very much a convincing effort to win differing views over.

Again, I've derailed. Apologies for that but I just have to say it. Nonetheless I would admit that I don't have a clue how your repo/calculator works but at least in conclusion till here that we agreed that stat weights itself isn't a good way to evaluate the value of a gear set.

And maybe, at least from your various reddit posts, you seem to be able to agree that Skill Speed eventually boils down to preference. Which I preferred not to. Which in your discussion with Rinchan, whom personally choose to value Skill Speed itself at 0. But your reaction to the same view from me right here was ridiculously strong:

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If you want to disagree with this then show me math and explain why, dont use any subjective opinions like "I don't think skillspeed is worth anything" which i know is literally the only thing you think mister I'd rather quadrameld my gear and leave an empty slot than meld skillspeed.

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I didn't even mentioned anything about Skill Speed if you bothered to read again. All I said was the 3 pieces of item there was not BiS itself?

Like Rinchan and other bards in your reddit discussion thread have said, they have considerations about TP issues with regards to having excessive Skill Speed itself, in which you mentioned that the trade off is minimal. Since you have stated that you do have the intention to obtain the set you have calculated (or was it close to it), and since I do not have the intention to to get any skill speed, maybe you actually do have the means to do long parses (by singing paeon to recover your own TP) to actually determine if there is really any, or how much benefits that 91 (or whatever Skill Speed you may have) is.

Or maybe you are much better at song timing and TP management itself that actually made the difference.

I would be all ears to your findings, if you would do it (or is going to get the BiS or anything close to it that you have calculated).


EDIT: BTW I'd agree with your no SS build - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PT8V

I apologize for being rude, was immature.

We should probably throw aside the skill speed discussion but I'll give you the logic that I use to justify why I think skillspeed isn't as bad as many people make it out to be.

As I see it skillspeed has one advantage and two disadvantages.

The advantage is that it increases your dps, how much it increases it by is very well understood and its ~.15-.16 effective dex per skillspeed point using dex as an approximate reference to make it easier to compare for people who dont want to calculate how it modifies potency per second. All the math I do to compare bard sets does do that math so its pretty accurate in this regard.

The first disadvantage, increased tp usage per second, is fairly well understood and frequently discussed so I'll gloss over it. The second that nobody talks about is how it affects dot clipping. As you increase your skillspeed you're gcds will come out quicker but your dot duration remains the same, this results in you getting less uptime per application and decreases the effective potency of your dot skills, at 0 ss as a bard you clip your dots by .5 seconds assuming no lag or delayed gcds. It still remains optimal to clip the dot up until ~480ish skillspeed where your rotation duration becomes something like 16.1 seconds and if you add an extra heavy shot your dots get reapplied at 18.5 seconds and the potency per second of that rotation is a little higher, as you get more ss it continues to grow, the optimal point is when a 5 heavy shot rotation is exactly 18 seconds long.

Both these factors devalue skillspeed, the question is how much? this isn't easy to calculate. It depends on a lot of things, the fight (downtime and length), how efficiently you insert paeon into your rotation, if you have a ninja, selene, etc. Its my opinion that in t9 skillspeed is worth its full stat weight and in t13 its pretty close to full stat weight.

I only have the augmented ironworks bow so I personally don't have any comparative parses from me against myself with two different bows to compare them, all I have is math and other peoples parses. I don't want to sound like a bragger but what I'm about to say is true and is important to the topic, my best parses with the augmented ironworks bow are better than most other bards best parses with the dreadwyrm bow, particularly on t13. I can think of 3 bards that I know parse higher than me and all of them have dreadwyrm bow, one of them is rinchan nau, I have a lot of respect for that guy, there are probably plenty more bards that beat me but I don't have there parses to compare against, the best resource I have is DnT's leaderboards and I'm 4 totaldps in fcob behind sartigan, and 32 above the next place person.

I've always used this to infer that skillspeed probably isn't hurting my dps and still has a value that is pretty close to the calculated stat weight. This is a pretty shitty way to decide whether skillspeed is useful or not but its what I got, I'm grinding the shit out of my relic any chance I get so hopefully once I get that or if the damned dreadbow will drop I can do some relevant comparisons myself.

Overall, given two equal builds where one has more skillspeed, I'd choose the set with less skillspeed, but the issue is how far do you go? skillspeed is in my opinion pretty obviously not value less, clipping your dots slightly quicker doesnt decrease your pps by more than decreasing your gcd increases it, as such I choose to still give skillspeed a decent amount of value and when you're doing these set comparisons, you're rarely dealing with sets that are equal in value, the ones with more skillspeed have more total stats because you're generally trading 1 det for 9 skillspeed, I have trouble believing that this isn't a winning trade. you'd have to say that you lose > 75% of the value of skillspeed for this not to be worth, and in the case of hat and gloves you're tradeing 0 stats for 9 skillspeed.

I hope that gives some more insight into the source of my opinions and preference.

I do however still want to convince you that the augmented gloves combo + ironworks ring is bis over the massive crafted set. I don't know what set you're planning on making but I'm assuming it looks something like this

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PTBE

effective dex on that set is 1526.524

vs the set I linked earlier

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PT8V

with an effective dex of 1528.395

some of this difference is accounted for by the fact that your melds leave your accessories short by 1 crit/det, but that only makes up for 1.2 dex, so the demon chest + crafted gloves + augmented ring build is still better while maintaining 0 skillspeed. It also has the advantage of being much cheaper since you dont have to pentameld a crit det chest all you need is 1 accuracy IV overmeld on the hat and gloves, and 2 for each of the 3 accessories. It also has one fewer crafted accessory since you're using an augmented ring, that extra 3 accuracy on the ring is what makes the build and allows you to get away with everything the way it is.

Valid arguments there. I think the reason why the DoT clipping wasn't really particular mentioned is that, in my personal opinion, less impact over the concerns of extra TP consumption. TBH I don't really notice where and when the DoTs exactly tick, and as you said, the timing of playing of songs, and taking into account of various mechanics that may throw your ideal continuous pewpewpew off (such as switching targets, being stunned etc), I think it isn't that bad. Unless it is an extended dummy style fight like T8, then maybe the effect of DoT clipping may be more pronounced.

And yes, Rinchan is one of the BRDs around that I follow around too (he posts around here as well). But that aside, I guess that doesn't matter because in order to make an objective comparison we have to keep the player status quo, I think you understand that. You can use the IL90 Elfin Bow and probably still beat the crap out of shit tons of Bards there (I've seen bards that is at 400, yes 400 dps during P1 of T13, I'm not sure how do they even clear) but you can't say that the Elfin is better than the Dreadwyrm.

The most painstaking question that we always ask ourselves at the end of the day is - is that skill speed worth the extra effort? This is because crit and det will definitely take precedence over skill speed any day, and even before skill speed is melded in, meeting accuracy cap will come first before that quickarm materia. That would usually make the quickarm the bottom of the melding chain, which means high failure. Depending on server, even quickarm can cost a ridiculous sum of gil. And with skill speed isn't a clear cut beneficial stat like crit/det does (which is the more the merrier), I guess it is natural that a large population of end game bards decides to completely ignore it if the cost is not justifiable.

I guess that is where the difference between you and I come about. If we were to look at it mathematically, I guess you are right about it. Theoretically under the right conditions, under the right player who knows when to play the songs and reapplying of DoTs in split seconds accuracy. But I guess as of now no bard dares to claim perfection (or even near) in execution, and thus the more "real-world" considerations comes in.

With regards to the sets - as mentioned in previous post I agree with your zero skill speed build. Your combination will indeed produce some 1.something (lower end) effective DEX over what I plan to use (actually what you see is what I already planned - I'm just missing the dread wrist and dread pants now, which after months of farming... still doesn't drop for me). I have no disagreement with that, and of course I could make the hands with the specified meld quite cheaply (maybe 1m-2m gil depending on meld RNG). A little gain, at the cost of some gil, and 1 pdef/mdef and 2 vitality lost. I'll probably give some thoughts about it.

Sidetrack - since you mentioned about my accessories where there are always missing 1 acc/1 crit/1 det from the cap: as you noticed this is because they are all IV melds instead of IV + III melds that would instead cap it properly. This in turn would allow me a free 5th slot for a Vit IV materia. You may be curious why I am so insistent in being fat, I guess it's just a safety measure. I'm in quite a bad luck since 2.3 until right now - I've been to 4 different statics, all of them broke, I've pugged here and there as well while trying to find a stable group and all I can say is that it is tough to find healers that can ensure that I don't die while eating Earthshaker with BfB on. I hate to hold BfB or cancel it just for Earthshaker, especially at this point in time where we are already so geared. I should be able to BfB without holding back - of cos with good healers it was never an issue, but yeah, they are not easy to come by.

This would probably answer your question on "given two equal builds where one has more skillspeed, I'd choose the set with less skillspeed, but the issue is how far do you go?". That is how far would I go about it. Unfortunately of all great healers I've met, I've never really managed to be in their team. And even if I do, it was just temporary. As such things like pdef/mdef and vitality would probably hold more value to me than skillspeed itself, I guess I can sacrifice that skill speed if I can get more pdef/mdef vitality. Conservative thinking yes, but maybe one day I am that good enough to end up in a very competitive team where I do not need to give too much thoughts about survival, then maybe going all out with damage would become a higher priority.

In any case, if I were to adjust according to your recommendation, this would be the set:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PTDV

Effective DEX improvement: 1.215

Yea I don't have that healer problem I'm rocking 6.3k hp at ilvl120 levels of mdef and def, I just pop keen flurry during earthshakers+b4b and im always fine, if its going to be up during tempest wings ill cancel it but proper timing makes it so that doesn't happen.

I used this build last night with over 700 crit: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PTBF

I wouldn't mind adding skill speed too, but honestly, I just don't have the gil currently. This build, however, is cheap enough that I may get it for my alt too.

Results seem positive even if not a significant leap. It's hard to tell also because I had a DRG last night.. Which 90% of the time I don't have. But I was able to surpass my previous t11 and t12 highs. I think I would have come close on t10 if I didn't die to a charge. t13 our group just had way more DPS than usual last night so I didn't even come close to my high due to so much down time.

Basically the same build with much more cost efficient melds.

Also @Rinchan

For that set you should try swapping out the crafted gloves for augmented ironworks on t10-11, I just tried out using lower accuracy sets for t10 and 11 and got really good results (read: improvement)

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

I used this build last night with over 700 crit: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PTBF

I wouldn't mind adding skill speed too, but honestly, I just don't have the gil currently. This build, however, is cheap enough that I may get it for my alt too.

Results seem positive even if not a significant leap. It's hard to tell also because I had a DRG last night.. Which 90% of the time I don't have. But I was able to surpass my previous t11 and t12 highs. I think I would have come close on t10 if I didn't die to a charge. t13 our group just had way more DPS than usual last night so I didn't even come close to my high due to so much down time.

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Would be curious on your T10 new high :D

Just finished T10 this week with the Zeta bow, still missing the pants/wrist for a complete set. 8mins run time without dragoon for 495DPS, if adjusted for dragoon (is it around 7.5%?) maybe 53X ish?

mine was 513.47 with a ninja and no dragoon, using this set, http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PTEH, note ironworks bow, crafted pants, dread wrists, encounter duration of 8:33, scholar used selene, there were no deaths, I don't think I got any wildcharges. My current highest with a dragoon and no ninja is 517 with this less optimized set http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PMA7 but im pretty sure I can top that given the no dragoon parse. Sadly I have no Dragoon + Ninja parses :(