Wow, I'd go as far as to wager you've never played XI because you completely misrepresent the diversity possible through FFXI's job/subjob system. In FFXI, the choice of a subjob was hugely meaningful and, in nearly every case, significantly affected how you played your character and what role your character played in a party. The XI job/subjob system provided far more meaningful choices and flexibility than FFXIV's class system currently does.Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ_Anyia
For example, in XI, subbing THF, WAR, or NIN all resulted in radically different approaches to party & solo dynamics. There is nothing currently in FFXIV which comes close to approaching this level of diversification. All the players of any given class in FFXIV play more or less exactly the same and use more or less the same abilities. You might cherry pick one or two utility spells from another class, but ultimately there is very little variety in what you can and should use. The current system merely offers the illusion of choice, when in reality there are no meaningful choices to be made.
If the class system were abolished, they would obviously include some other system for diversification of class abilities. There would probably be some way to use abilities from other jobs on your "main" job, but it would obviously be limited in some respects . All in all, the system would function very much so like it currently does.
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08-21-2011, 03:02 AMRonik
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08-21-2011, 03:08 AMRaagnar
They said the "jobs" will be templates to put on your class. If you are 50 lancer you will be 50 dragoon automatically when unlocked. This lets jobs enter the game without making armoury obsolete. Wait til you see the actual job system before asking to be rid of one of the best features in game.
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08-21-2011, 03:22 AMStarflare
Jobs are going to be specializations (think any other MMO) that takes your base class and makes it more adept at a particular role in a group. The Job system is not meant to replace the Armory system. It's meant to augment it.
I just wish they would do more than 1 Job per class. It would make things like CON -> BLM or CON -> WHM make much more sense.
- Kurokikaze -
08-21-2011, 03:27 AMTheVedis1 per class is only to start, its not going to be the end all of the systemQuote:
Originally Posted by Starflare
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08-21-2011, 03:33 AMFironThey are going to move abilities and spells around classes so CON> to WHM will make sense. I Really like the 1 Class = 1 job cause i think its lame you can lvl 1 class and have multiple lvl 50's jobs basically, I rather them make more base classesQuote:
Originally Posted by Starflare
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08-21-2011, 03:43 AMTsukino
I think they just don't want to have to rewrite any of the stuff that's in the game already.
Paladins are holy warriors that wouldn't be caught dead at a coliseum. Monks are spiritual ones that are more the "eschew earthly possessions" types than the kind that would run a gambling hall. Elemental magic (Fire, Burn, Flare) belongs to black mages, but you can't take it away from conjurers because they worship the elementals in the Twelveswood.
Basically, to replace them they'd have to redesign sections of every city, rework every reference any NPC has to those guilds and classes, and alter the storylines related to the ones that don't fit at all. It's a lot easier to just throw some NPCs in each that starts a quest to unlock a job. They're also scared they'll hurt our feelings or something by changing things too much when they're so set on keeping the servers running and our progress in-tact. -
08-21-2011, 04:32 AMIStolzI
The system they are talking about sounds amazing, and makes 1job/class or class=job systems look primitive. All MMOs are doing specs now, let's your character delv a little deeper. Don't be fooled either, XI had a spec option too it was called subjobs and it really wasn't that impressive, very rarely allowing you to execute multiple roles.
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08-21-2011, 04:41 AMChiz
I agree that the Class and Job systems will be largely redundant once implemented, I just hate the way SE is going about implementing the change. While I can't say for 100% certainty what they are going to do with the Class/Job system, all indications are that they are going to make you choose between Job-specific abilities and the flexibility of the Armoury system.
In simpler terms, if you want to play as a Job, you get the Class core abilities + Job abilities but lose the flexibility of the Armoury system using abilities from other Classes. This is a huge step backward imo and will result in even less role flexibility than we had in XI while using Jobs. Also, my feeling is that in order to make the Job system look like the clearly more desirable alternative, they are going to have to nerf the Armoury System and class abilities significantly. Such a shame because the Armoury System is probably the most innovative feature XIV has to offer.
Personally I think they should've just renamed and tweaked the existing Classes with traditional FF names, but I think Yoshi-P was wary of the negative repercussions of a perceived "rebranding" of the old classes. There's a lot of things they could've done to the existing classes to give them a more distinct flavor without completely dismantling the Armoury System:
- 1) Locked core/class-defining abilities to main classes.
- 2) Increase AP cost of non-main class abilities.
- 3) Increase impact of affinity
- 4) Limit # of cross-training AP slots. So maybe only 5 abilities that can be used from other classes.
- 5) Change/tweak specific gameplay mechanics, like AoE or damage amounts.
- 6) Introduce gear that emphasizes roles/abilities for particular classes.
- 7) Limit non-main class abilities to 1/2 of main class rank. Similar to XI system, but you have more "sub-jobs" to choose from.
We've already seen a lot of these changes implemented with 1.18 that help define class roles further and alter gameplay strategies, and we haven't even gotten the bulk of the changes to classes slated for 1.20. My main concern again is that in order to make the Job system the more desired alternative (which is clearly their desired outcome), they are going to have to nerf the Armoury System by restricting what abilities do and what you can use on different Classes. What we will end up with is even less class/job/subjob flexibility than what we had even in XI.
I hope I'm wrong, but again, everything I've read on the topic points things in this direction. -
08-21-2011, 05:05 AMzaviermhigo
Although the sp requirement to obtain max rank in this game is not casual at all, they still keep in mind that some people may not be able to do the content that jobs are based around because they're casual players. But sometimes I think they confuse casual with anti-social. Since even I don't have the time I want to play due to school, but I would still like to group, they think that casual players play solo and don't have a linkshell or something. Its funny they don't even know they're own game base. They think we're like 15 year old kids in highschool with all the time in the world, they should of taken xi, most people who played that game are in college, have kids, or have work, or have all three. Most of the people i meet who play XIV also have a combination of these three. So stop making the game for high school kids with all the time in the world, and start thinking casuals are just older people with real world responsibilities. You would think no one would want to play an mmo solo, but there are people, those people should not be catered to, imo screw them. But people with real world obligations who would like to play the game on weekends, that is casual content. So with jobs I see it could even help those who wanted to party on the weekends, and classes being for those antiscocial soloers (you're not casual if you log on everyday to solo)
Once we play with jobs I think some people will miss cross class haha -
08-21-2011, 05:17 AMAJ_AnyiaSo what you're saying, is that there is more variety and useability in being limited to one job and half of another job versus having access to multiple job's abilities all at once? I don't see much of an illusion there. The job system mandates that certain people have to come as certain jobs to make things run smooth, where as in the current armory system people can swap out as need dictates. Again I state that being able to put what you want on a class and not be mandated to a certain set of abilities is still better. If you SAM/THF all you have are that SAM's abilities and half the level's of THF. I fail to see the flexibility, the only job from XI that really has player's choice is Blue Mage since you can choose what spells, and in turn traits, you have. Other than that, you're stuck to your main and sub's stuff. Being a BST/WHM for soloing isn't what I'd consider versatile. The only variety you have are your petsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronik
And while those few cherry picked things may look minor, they are in fact what makes things catered to the solo/small groups. You don't need dedicated healers for leves or exp burning, it makes thing run a heck of a lot smoother having them I'll admit, but they aren't mandatory. Now that's not an every instance situation, in some they are absolutely necessary. Not only that, but here we are able to change on the fly where as in XI we had to go all the way back, change, etc. In XI is a healer d/c's and doesn't come back you're screwed. In XIV if a CON d/c's, and granted if someone else has it leveled, progress continues. Or if there's a total wipe save one DD, chances are there's a higher probability that DD from XIV has CON leveled to a point that he/she has raise versus XI where its subbed whm/rdm soley for raise. I haven't seen too many RNG/WHM or RNG/RDM out there and the ones I did see were subbed RDM for wildfire/trueflight only and that was all they were there for. But I know plenty of ARC, GLA and PUG that have enough levels in CON for a clutch raise should the situation warrant it. Again I'll say that I'll take being able to pick and choose what I want versus being told, "This is what you have, deal with it."
Granted subjobs gives versatility to the main jobs, but that comes at a price. I can change things on the fly in XIV, but in XI I have to go all the way back to my MH/Nomad Moogle to change subjobs which interrupts the flow of whatever it is that's going on. And now if a job implementation is put into the game, the elitism will come back where if people don't have things set to a way that's comfortable they'll get booted out of groups or whatever. And all of these "cherry picked" things are just that only because of the limited classes that are out right now, more will be released and more things will become available to us to choose from. Am I in favor of a job system to augment or specifically style a job for a set amount of time? Sure, why not since it would make things easier to set yourself to a job and have your abilities automatically change to that job's style. Am I in favor or abolishing the class and armory system in favor of job classes? No. NO. Hell. No.